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Mathman, were you born an optimist or is that something you learned on your own?
I come from a country where the people try to be realistic.
We've been dreaming about rail in Georgia for so long that the dream will literally outlive many if not all Georgians. It appears that so many projects that could be done in the 1960s and earlier are now prohibitively expensive. Now we have to settle for squat Arch de Triomphes in commercial developments and ugly Torch towers along our interstates.
Train fare price will be so high that most will choose to drive.
Will your position stay the same if gas reaches 6 or 7 bucks a gallon, a situation that is not out of the question?
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Originally Posted by MathmanMathman
I come from a country where the people try to be realistic.
We've been dreaming about rail in Georgia for so long that the dream will literally outlive many if not all Georgians. It appears that so many projects that could be done in the 1960s and earlier are now prohibitively expensive. Now we have to settle for squat Arch de Triomphes in commercial developments and ugly Torch towers along our interstates.
I try to be realistic, too. Realistic about the fact that mile-for-mile, rail is hands-down the safest form of medium-to-long-distance travel. Realistic about the fact that while new energy sources may come online in the next couple of decades that will keep electricity prices relatively even, gas prices are liable to skyrocket as we hit peak oil (which is coming WAY sooner than some realize). Realistic about the fact that though rail lines may not directly pay for themselves, a well-designed line can create economic opportunities well in excess of the cost of the line.
Will your position stay the same if gas reaches 6 or 7 bucks a gallon, a situation that is not out of the question?
Guess we'll have to wait and see. They won't build a rail line as a safeguard in case that happens. But I suspect that even with high gas prices, it'll raise rail prices as energy costs go up, and alternatives will crop up such as electric cars may continue the challenge to rail.
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I try to be realistic, too. Realistic about the fact that mile-for-mile, rail is hands-down the safest form of medium-to-long-distance travel. Realistic about the fact that while new energy sources may come online in the next couple of decades that will keep electricity prices relatively even, gas prices are liable to skyrocket as we hit peak oil (which is coming WAY sooner than some realize). Realistic about the fact that though rail lines may not directly pay for themselves, a well-designed line can create economic opportunities well in excess of the cost of the line.
If that is all true, then there is no need to debate. But I think electric cars and hybrids show promise. History is replete with comical predictions of the future. Some see trains as coming back in the US, and they could be right. I'm content to let the market forces play themselves out as to what we'll use.
I see this present push for intercity-rail travel as more of a liberal "wet-dream" to become "more green".
I come from a country where the people try to be realistic.
We've been dreaming about rail in Georgia for so long that the dream will literally outlive many if not all Georgians. It appears that so many projects that could be done in the 1960s and earlier are now prohibitively expensive. Now we have to settle for squat Arch de Triomphes in commercial developments and ugly Torch towers along our interstates.
One of my favorite things about the naysayer approach is that you never get called out when thing go better than predicted. Likewise, if the results are disappointing, you get to play the wise man role and say, "See, I told you this would never work."
Attitudes are a funny thing, though. Pessimism almost always leads to limited goals, limited effort and limited achievement.
Since you mention 1960, let's turn the clock back there for a moment. Who would have believed that Atlanta would host the Olympics? Who would have believed we'd add 5 million new residents in the next 50 years? Who would thought we'd have the busiest airport in the world? How many would have believed that within a decade we'd have all major pro sports franchises, and that before long we'd build, use, tear down are replace stadiums and arenas for them? Who would have said we'd have the most extensive rail system in the country outside of cities like New York, Chicago, Boston, Philadelphia and San Francisco? Who would have guessed that rural little Gwinnett County would grow from 40,000 to a roaring suburb that's pushing a million residents (less than half of whom are white)? Who would envisioned the spectacular skylines that grace Midtown and Buckhead? Would anyone have believed the humble Downtown Connector would grow to a mighty 16 lanes, and that I-85 would become just an accessory road to a massive new northeast expressway? That Georgia Tech would be one of the nation's top 5 engineering schools? That Jimmy Carter would be President of the United States and build his presidential library here?
The list goes on, of course. The fact is it all happened because people dared to think big, and worked very hard to bring it about.
We could say that the time has come and gone for everything we'd like to do, and that it's prohibitively expense now anyway. So why not just resign ourselves to the fact that the best we'll ever do is the Big Chicken or the mangled "torch" by the freeway?
Why not? Well, remember the line in the old song that asks, "If you don't have a dream, then how are going to have a dream come true?"
One of my favorite things about the naysayer approach is that you never get called out when thing go better than predicted. Likewise, if the results are disappointing, you get to play the wise man role and say, "See, I told you this would never work."
Attitudes are a funny thing, though. Pessimism almost always leads to limited goals, limited effort and limited achievement.
Since you mention 1960, let's turn the clock back there for a moment. Who would have believed that Atlanta would host the Olympics? Who would have believed we'd add 5 million new residents in the next 50 years? Who would thought we'd have the busiest airport in the world? How many would have believed that within a decade we'd have all major pro sports franchises, and that before long we'd build, use, tear down are replace stadiums and arenas for them? Who would have said we'd have the most extensive rail system in the country outside of cities like New York, Chicago, Boston, Philadelphia and San Francisco? Who would have guessed that rural little Gwinnett County would grow from 40,000 to a roaring suburb that's pushing a million residents (less than half of whom are white)? Who would envisioned the spectacular skylines that grace Midtown and Buckhead? Would anyone have believed the humble Downtown Connector would grow to a mighty 16 lanes, and that I-85 would become just an accessory road to a massive new northeast expressway? That Georgia Tech would be one of the nation's top 5 engineering schools? That Jimmy Carter would be President of the United States and build his presidential library here?
The list goes on, of course. The fact is it all happened because people dared to think big, and worked very hard to bring it about.
We could say that the time has come and gone for everything we'd like to do, and that it's prohibitively expense now anyway. So why not just resign ourselves to the fact that the best we'll ever do is the Big Chicken or the mangled "torch" by the freeway?
Why not? Well, remember the line in the old song that asks, "If you don't have a dream, then how are going to have a dream come true?"
One of my favorite things about the naysayer approach is that you never get called out when thing go better than predicted. Likewise, if the results are disappointing, you get to play the wise man role and say, "See, I told you this would never work."
Attitudes are a funny thing, though. Pessimism almost always leads to limited goals, limited effort and limited achievement.
Since you mention 1960, let's turn the clock back there for a moment. Who would have believed that Atlanta would host the Olympics? Who would have believed we'd add 5 million new residents in the next 50 years? Who would thought we'd have the busiest airport in the world? How many would have believed that within a decade we'd have all major pro sports franchises, and that before long we'd build, use, tear down are replace stadiums and arenas for them? Who would have said we'd have the most extensive rail system in the country outside of cities like New York, Chicago, Boston, Philadelphia and San Francisco? Who would have guessed that rural little Gwinnett County would grow from 40,000 to a roaring suburb that's pushing a million residents (less than half of whom are white)? Who would envisioned the spectacular skylines that grace Midtown and Buckhead? Would anyone have believed the humble Downtown Connector would grow to a mighty 16 lanes, and that I-85 would become just an accessory road to a massive new northeast expressway? That Georgia Tech would be one of the nation's top 5 engineering schools? That Jimmy Carter would be President of the United States and build his presidential library here?
The list goes on, of course. The fact is it all happened because people dared to think big, and worked very hard to bring it about.
At one time, Atlanta would have had an even better shot at hosting the Olympics. LA was the only bidder for the 1984 Olympics because the Olympics were a huge money loser. It took Montreal 30 years to pay off their debt. Nobody wanted the Games. LA showed that the Olympics could not only be self-supporting but also profitable. Atlanta had built the necessary infrastructure, was able to play the diversity card, and Greece shot themselves down.
Delta selected Atlanta when Birmingham dropped the ball even when Delta preferred Birmingham. Atlanta was an air hub with few competing southern cities and Hartsfield was Atlanta's only commercial airport.
Georgia Tech was Georgia's only engineering school whereas places like Alabama had many schools with engineering programs. By focusing on one, GT became very good.
Jimmy Carter, like Obama, had great timing. A nation was weary of the Watergate scandal and with Washington in general, so the nation wanted to embrace an outsider.
Atlanta was a railroad hub and was a natural choice as a nexus of interstates. As being the leading southern city, the federal government placed many of its regional offices there. With that base, growth took off.
My impression about Gwinnett was that I-85 went through it and Cobb was so developed that growth moved over to Gwinnett.
I believe Seattle was to be given the rail transit but they turned down the money. Probably a matter of matching or suporting funds. Atlanta was the runner-up.
Atlanta's history is replete with being at the right place at the right time. I just don't believe that now is the time for rail in Georgia. The most likely is HSR to Charlotte but even that I don't see a pressing need for. If we are headed for a rebirth of rail, Atlanta will be well-placed but for now, I think any talk of that is pre-mature regardless of Atlanta's dreams. I mean we've been dreaming for the so-called "Brain Train" but it's not happening.
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We could say that the time has come and gone for everything we'd like to do, and that it's prohibitively expense now anyway. So why not just resign ourselves to the fact that the best we'll ever do is the Big Chicken or the mangled "torch" by the freeway?
Why not? Well, remember the line in the old song that asks, "If you don't have a dream, then how are going to have a dream come true?"
Hint: You won't.
Dreams have to be realistic. They can happen with preparation and timing...and a little luck.
And I love the Big Chicken.
Last edited by MathmanMathman; 08-21-2011 at 02:46 PM..
Guess we'll have to wait and see. They won't build a rail line as a safeguard in case that happens. But I suspect that even with high gas prices, it'll raise rail prices as energy costs go up, and alternatives will crop up such as electric cars may continue the challenge to rail.
Not if we find cheap, alternative energy sources by then. But if the naysayers get their way, we won't
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If that is all true, then there is no need to debate. But I think electric cars and hybrids show promise. History is replete with comical predictions of the future. Some see trains as coming back in the US, and they could be right. I'm content to let the market forces play themselves out as to what we'll use.
Right back at you, then.
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I see this present push for intercity-rail travel as more of a liberal "wet-dream" to become "more green".
Trolling. How droll.
Quote:
Originally Posted by arjay57
One of my favorite things about the naysayer approach is that you never get called out when thing go better than predicted. Likewise, if the results are disappointing, you get to play the wise man role and say, "See, I told you this would never work."
Attitudes are a funny thing, though. Pessimism almost always leads to limited goals, limited effort and limited achievement.
Since you mention 1960, let's turn the clock back there for a moment. Who would have believed that Atlanta would host the Olympics? Who would have believed we'd add 5 million new residents in the next 50 years? Who would thought we'd have the busiest airport in the world? How many would have believed that within a decade we'd have all major pro sports franchises, and that before long we'd build, use, tear down are replace stadiums and arenas for them? Who would have said we'd have the most extensive rail system in the country outside of cities like New York, Chicago, Boston, Philadelphia and San Francisco? Who would have guessed that rural little Gwinnett County would grow from 40,000 to a roaring suburb that's pushing a million residents (less than half of whom are white)? Who would envisioned the spectacular skylines that grace Midtown and Buckhead? Would anyone have believed the humble Downtown Connector would grow to a mighty 16 lanes, and that I-85 would become just an accessory road to a massive new northeast expressway? That Georgia Tech would be one of the nation's top 5 engineering schools? That Jimmy Carter would be President of the United States and build his presidential library here?
The list goes on, of course. The fact is it all happened because people dared to think big, and worked very hard to bring it about.
We could say that the time has come and gone for everything we'd like to do, and that it's prohibitively expense now anyway. So why not just resign ourselves to the fact that the best we'll ever do is the Big Chicken or the mangled "torch" by the freeway?
Why not? Well, remember the line in the old song that asks, "If you don't have a dream, then how are going to have a dream come true?"
Hint: You won't.
"You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to arjay57 again.
Not if we find cheap, alternative energy sources by then. But if the naysayers get their way, we won't
I'm just trying to keep it real. Unless there is a breakthrough in fusion energy (which we've been chasing for decades), the only realistic alternative to fossil fuels is nuclear fission and that possibility drives liberals insane. Wind and solar can only generate a small amount of our energy needs and wind mills are surprising doing serious damage to birds and bats allowing insect populations to flourish.
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Trolling. How droll.
I really do think the green aspects and collective nature of rail travel thrills liberals. Reduce that "carbon footprint", remove individual travel, and shoot down corporate jets!
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"You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to arjay57 again.
Atlanta's history is replete with being at the right place at the right time.
The best definition of luck I've ever heard is that it's opportunity meeting preparation.
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Wind and solar can only generate a small amount of our energy needs and wind mills are surprising doing serious damage to birds and bats allowing insect populations to flourish. 
