Stone Mountain/Conf flag? (Atlanta, Kennesaw: house, gated, tax)

[DeaconJ]

Originally Posted by arjay57

Well, no doubt there's a mountain of absurd government spending. And you're correct that some of it is always going to step on someone's toes. The frequent renaming of streets is especially annoying to me.

But I don't think any of this rises to the unique level of the Confederate flag. It's one of the most powerful and readily recognizable symbols in the country. You'd have to have been living under a rock for the past half century not to realize its close association with state opposition to the civil rights movement and with white supremacist organizations.

The renaming of streets really chaps my hide...it's not as if most street names don't already commemorate someone or something. Cone Street, for example, is named for one of Atlanta's pioneers who obviously deserved to have a namesake street. Many of the streets that have already been renamed were previously named for prominent Atlantans in history, like Gordon, Ashby, Houston, Ivy, and Butler. I don't understand taking away this honor from those who are responsible for building Atlanta.

[ATL_II_DMV]

I like how Ludacris and Lil Jon burned with confederate flag in performances and different videos.

It may represent heritage to some, but I will never support that flag flying anywhere.

I'll burn any confederate flag right in front of the rednecks in any state park

[suprascooby22]

Originally Posted by canudigit

If we're going to be fair, what about how our own beloved Stars and Stripes flew over a nation that believed in the genocide of Native Americans, simply because we wanted their land? What about when slavery existed in the Northern colonies in the 18th century?

I was born and raised in Ohio and have lived in Michigan for the past several years. I am not a neo-Confederate, and I have ancestors who fought for the Union in the Civil War. However, whenever the issue of the Confederate battle flag comes up, it always leads me to wonder why so many people are so self-righteous about it. I love my country, and I always will. However, I realize that many atrocities have been committed in the name of the good old US of A, yet I don't see people getting in a tizzy because someone is displaying the American flag and it was used by Custer's troops when they invaded Indian villages in the plains states and proceeded to massacre women and children...just because they could.

People in the North are often smugly proud of our ancestors and will talk about how terrible the Southern leaders were for trying to perpetuate slavery, yet our own ancestors thought nothing of running ghetto tenaments and sweatshops and exterminating huge numbers of Native Americans in the name of manifest destiny. One Union Civil War hero, General Philip Sheridan, is also credited with making the chilling statement, "The only good Indian is a dead Indian". So the question begs to be asked, how are we any better, and how can we sit in self-righteous judgment of the South's history of chattel slavery when our own history is tarnished with equally reprehensible acts against humanity?

I say, if someone has pride in their state's history, warts and all, then who really cares if they want to fly a flag to show it? The last time I checked, this is America and we have the freedom to fly any flag that we wish. To display the Confederate flag is not to condone slavery any more than displaying the Stars and Stripes is condoning brutal genocide of Native Americans and exploitation of poor European immigrants. History is history, both good and bad. Live and let live.

Very well said, the righteousness indignation of some people is really laughable.

[suprascooby22]

Originally Posted by back2dc

It's also anti-American and treasonous. That doesn't make Confederate supporters any better than Osama bin Laden and the terrorists who also attacked American soil -- just like the Confederates did.

Think about it.

Get over yourself, who are YOU do decide what others should feel about anything!!

[suprascooby22]

Originally Posted by arjay57

Celebrating Southern culture makes a lot of sense to me, too, and I do it at every opportunity. The culture of the South is a rich, amazingly complicated and often wonderful tapestry. However, I don't see how that requires hoisting the Confederate flag at state facilities.

While the Civil War was far more complex than a battle about slavery, there's no denying that they are closely linked. In today's world raising the Confederate flag at a state facility (owned by all Georgians) just isn't appropriate. For many of us it symbolizes the era of segregation and racism. Flying the flag at a state facility implies that Georgia is looking backward rather than forward.

What about Confederate cemetaries like the one in Jonesboro on the southside? That is a govt sponsored graveyard that flys the confederate battle flag. Should they be denied to fly that flag there because it offends SOME people?

[DeaconJ]

Originally Posted by ATL_II_DMV

I like how Ludacris and Lil Jon burned with confederate flag in performances and different videos.

It may represent heritage to some, but I will never support that flag flying anywhere.

I'll burn any confederate flag right in front of the rednecks in any state park

I guess MLK Jr.'s method of peaceful and nonviolent protest is not your thing? I doubt this kind of action will change any minds or educate the ignorant. One offensive act does not deserve another.

I think most people are with you on not supporting this symbol of hate, but there are better ways to exhibit your stance than this.

[Bullbear]

Originally Posted by back2dc

Keep telling yourself that kid. Seceded on constitutional grounds? If that was the case than what happened at Fort Sumter was just a "misunderstanding".

Whatever allows you to sleep at night. The South and Slavery will always go hand in hand.

Oh yeah, here it is. The bald-faced effort to make one group of americans (southerners) feel, quite literally, ashamed of who they are and their heritage, while at the same time creating immense pride among another group, african americans, as "righteous victims and fighers against injustice".

Sorry Charlie, it wont fly. Southerners will never be ashamed of their history or ancestors. You could perhaps make us say it by holding a gun to our head, but that doesnt mean we BELEIVE it.

If you are so proud of america, why must you be called "african american"? Eh? No other group requires such a distinction. Not even Southerners!

Perhaps you are so proud of all the great things that the continent of Africa has brought to the rest of the world over the last 250 years? Is that it? Hmmmm....

PS: My ancestors, who were southerners, were also directly connected to the Founding of this country AND served with distinction in both World Wars, some giving their lives. So what, Ive got to go back and sort out who I should be "ashamed of" and who I should be proud of? NEVER. And you just have to deal with that, hoss.

[Bullbear]

Originally Posted by Desert kid

I didn't say it was all Lincoln's fault, before the war Lincoln was a lawyer, he knew a thing or two about playing legalities and polititics, and legalities in politics. I never stated it was a conspiracy, you did. And the 300,000 dead Union soldiers speaks as much for the 300,000 dead Confederate soldiers, war and disease just happens to do that in 1860's America. And it wasn't some "Hot Headed Bubba's" at Ft. Sumter either, the man in charge of the shelling of the Fort was General Pierre Gustav Toutant Beauregard, and he stressed over the idea of firing on the fort for several weeks before finally attempting to shake the yanks from the harbor.

But since it wasn't treason, I have nothing to own up to, while only 4 of the 11 (arguable 13) Confederate states had their reasons for seceding explicitly in slavery (South Carolina, Georgia, Mississippi and Texas), Georgia added that tariffs also caused the rift, and Texas also argued Washington didn't live up to it's end of the Annexation Treaty.

When you say "went to war against America" do you really mean "the North killing the Republic that the original intent of was not to be bound by force, but to be govern by the consent of the governed, even if that meant seceding"?

"If you bring these leaders to trial, it will condemn the North, for by the Constitution, secession is not rebellion...His (Jeff Davis') capture was a mistake. His trial will be a greater one. We cannot convict him of treason." - Judge Salmon P. Chase

"After studying more than 270,000 Confederate documents, seeking evidence against Davis, the court discouraged the War Department: 'Davis will be found not guilty,' Lieber reported 'and we shall stand there completely beaten'." - Judge Fraz Leiber

^^ And this was the SCOTUS powers-that-be AFTER the Civil War.

Outstanding. The poster to which you were responding has zero ability to refute your facts with anything other than ad hominems and empty rhetoric. Its the best hope for "reparations".

[Merin]

Oh please lets not pretend the Confederate Flag has been flown far more often in support of murder, terror, and intimidation than it spent in battle.

The Third Reich lasted only 12 years and completely ruined the image of the swastika, a symbol steeped in ancient Indian tradition. It would be hard to argue otherwise. Meanwhile people refuse to get it when mentioning the confederate flag.

If twelve years can demolish a symbol of goodness that spanned 3000+ years,then certainly one hundred and fifty years worth of violence and bigotry blots out even the most remote ideals of one flag among about six that stood for a nation that didn't survive the war.

[arjay57]

Originally Posted by suprascooby22

What about Confederate cemetaries like the one in Jonesboro on the southside? That is a govt sponsored graveyard that flys the confederate battle flag. Should they be denied to fly that flag there because it offends SOME people?

I understand your point, but if it's a government supported cemetery the government shouldn't be flying the Confederate flag. In a private cemetery people can do as they please, but when you get the government involved they can't make partisan choices.

As I said earlier, even though slavery was the "but for" cause of the Civil War, many people on both sides also fought for reasons of personal and regional pride, individual honor, religion, economics, family and culture. (Not to mention that a lot of folks on both sides were forced to fight against their will). That includes my own ancestors, who were small time farmers who did not own slaves or have any stake in the system of slavery. They came down this way in the hopes of finding a better life and, like many Southerners, wound up getting caught up in a war whose causes had little to do with them personally.

The Civil War is obviously one of the shaping events of American history and we all need to know about it rather than pretending it didn't happen. However, the Confederate flag has clearly come to symbolize opposition to the civil rights movement and extremist white supremacy groups. It's not merely a benign historical artifact. With rare exceptions like the one you mention, the government has no business flying the Confederate flag at state owned facilities. That includes Stone Mountain. We can honor American (and Southern) history and honor the lives and struggles of our ancestors without insisting that the government hoist a hot button symbol like that at a facility owned by all Georgians.

I have visited many Civil War battlefields, museums and memorials. I've walked through woods and fields where soldiers fought, even though there is no memorial at all. I've read extensively on the subject and am pretty well acquainted with all the perspectives. I know where some of my family members from that era are buried, and I have held in my hands letters they wrote and clothes they wore. I've even dug cannonballs out of my own yard and am grateful they didn't explode in the process. So I feel pretty connected to that part of our history. I don't need my government to wave a red flag at my fellow citizens in order to appreciate it.