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I understand your point, but if it's a government supported cemetery the government shouldn't be flying the Confederate flag. In a private cemetery people can do as they please, but when you get the government involved they can't make partisan choices.
As I said earlier, even though slavery was the "but for" cause of the Civil War, many people on both sides also fought for reasons of personal and regional pride, individual honor, religion, economics, family and culture. (Not to mention that a lot of folks on both sides were forced to fight against their will). That includes my own ancestors, who were small time farmers who did not own slaves or have any stake in the system of slavery. They came down this way in the hopes of finding a better life and, like many Southerners, wound up getting caught up in a war whose causes had little to do with them personally.
The Civil War is obviously one of the shaping events of American history and we all need to know about it rather than pretending it didn't happen. However, the Confederate flag has clearly come to symbolize opposition to the civil rights movement and extremist white supremacy groups. It's not merely a benign historical artifact. With rare exceptions like the one you mention, the government has no business flying the Confederate flag at state owned facilities. That includes Stone Mountain. We can honor American (and Southern) history and honor the lives and struggles of our ancestors without insisting that the government hoist a hot button symbol like that at a facility owned by all Georgians.
I have visited many Civil War battlefields, museums and memorials. I've walked through woods and fields where soldiers fought, even though there is no memorial at all. I've read extensively on the subject and am pretty well acquainted with all the perspectives. I know where some of my family members from that era are buried, and I have held in my hands letters they wrote and clothes they wore. I've even dug cannonballs out of my own yard and am grateful they didn't explode in the process. So I feel pretty connected to that part of our history. I don't need my government to wave a red flag at my fellow citizens in order to appreciate it.
Your points are duely noted, I would just argue that places like Kennesaw Mountain and the Confederate Cemetary in Jonesboro should be able to fly the Confederate flag in purely a historic context. Outside of that I totally agree with the points you are making.
Now let me throw you a curveball. What do you think of the US parks service spending millions on Ebenezer Baptist in Atlanta? That is STILL a place of worship and the Federal Govt spend tax payers dollars refurbishing a house of worship. Now I know it is a historical landmark but it is also a church. To me the govt has NO business spending federal monies on a church that is still used for worship.
Now let me throw you a curveball. What do you think of the US parks service spending millions on Ebenezer Baptist in Atlanta? That is STILL a place of worship and the Federal Govt spend tax payers dollars refurbishing a house of worship. Now I know it is a historical landmark but it is also a church. To me the govt has NO business spending federal monies on a church that is still used for worship.
I 100% agree.
One other comment on the cemetery thing. I don't have a problem with a museum at these cemeteries which displays historical memorabilia, including the Confederate flag. It would be crazy (and tragic) to pretend the Confederacy didn't exist or that the Civil War didn't happen.
But that's not the same thing as openly flying a flag that has become closely associated with opposition to equality in civil rights and extremist white supremacy groups. If I'm not mistaken that issue has already been hammered out in the courts a number of times.
One other comment on the cemetery thing. I don't have a problem with a museum at these cemeteries which displays historical memorabilia, including the Confederate flag. It would be crazy (and tragic) to pretend the Confederacy didn't exist or that the Civil War didn't happen.
But that's not the same thing as openly flying a flag that has become closely associated with opposition to equality in civil rights and extremist white supremacy groups. If I'm not mistaken that issue has already been hammered out in the courts a number of times.
How about this assortment, found at the confederate monument in Oakland Cemetery. The fourth one is also a confederate flag (the "stars and bars") but it doesn't seem to cause the same controversy as the battle flag. Maybe not as many people are familiar with it as the other one?
How about this assortment, found at the confederate monument in Oakland Cemetery. The fourth one is also a confederate flag (the "stars and bars") but it doesn't seem to cause the same controversy as the battle flag. Maybe not as many people are familiar with it as the other one?
Sadly, people don't know that the pictured flag is that actual flag of the Confederacy. The "stars and bars" was used as the battle flag for the Army of Northern Virginia.
Let's also not forget that only around 20% of all white Southerners owned slaves in 1860. Also, several Northern states had slaves into the mid 19th century. Pennsylvania, New Hampshire, and Rhode Island still had slaves into the 1840s and New Jersey had slaves until 1865. I'm not saying that slavery was not a major factor for succession. But to say it is the only one, is ignorant.
Hello,
I visited GA recently and am looking at Georgia for school as it has the best program that I am looking for. I loved GA but I do not understand the concepts behind Stone Mt. I mean it was commissioned by KKK members, yet shows famous GA African Americans in the laser show. The very fact of being proud of the confederacy is puzzling to me, as most historians agree that the main issue for the formation of the confederacy was, overwhelmingly, the preservation of slavery. Don't people in the south find those conf flags racist? why do they still have them? or is it just about southern pride? enlighten me. Anyway I loved GA and saw a lot of diversity and no racism while I was there, so it seems like a great place to live.
Thanks,
Danny
Anything that annoys ignorant blacks is something I cant really hate. Although I have read a lot about the Civil War. Bottom like the Union won. The south is apart of the Union so they lost. I was just watching about the KKK history doc with my girl and she use to live in Stone Mt....it was funny her reaction knowing the KKK was restarted at the rock. To me the KKK is no different than the Crips & the Bloods. They all are local terrorist factions. Let the necks fly their flag man. They aint hurting nothing but weak peoples feeling which I care little for regardless of race.
Get over yourself, who are YOU do decide what others should feel about anything!!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bullbear
Oh yeah, here it is. The bald-faced effort to make one group of americans (southerners) feel, quite literally, ashamed of who they are and their heritage, while at the same time creating immense pride among another group, african americans, as "righteous victims and fighers against injustice".
Sorry Charlie, it wont fly. Southerners will never be ashamed of their history or ancestors. You could perhaps make us say it by holding a gun to our head, but that doesnt mean we BELEIVE it.
If you are so proud of america, why must you be called "african american"? Eh? No other group requires such a distinction. Not even Southerners!
Perhaps you are so proud of all the great things that the continent of Africa has brought to the rest of the world over the last 250 years? Is that it? Hmmmm....
PS: My ancestors, who were southerners, were also directly connected to the Founding of this country AND served with distinction in both World Wars, some giving their lives. So what, Ive got to go back and sort out who I should be "ashamed of" and who I should be proud of? NEVER. And you just have to deal with that, hoss.
So now I'm black now too? People on here have some serious misconceptions about me.
Take a deep breath Boss Hogg, but I'm actually of German and Italian descent, which just so happens to be the two European Nazi powers from WW2. Don't for a second think I don't understand about cultural shame and pride.
Well, no doubt there's a mountain of absurd government spending. And you're correct that some of it is always going to step on someone's toes. The frequent renaming of streets is especially annoying to me.
But I don't think any of this rises to the unique level of the Confederate flag. It's one of the most powerful and readily recognizable symbols in the country. You'd have to have been living under a rock for the past half century not to realize its close association with state opposition to the civil rights movement and with white supremacist organizations.
No question, the Confederate flag can be in some circles down South, the proverbial "3rd rail" of controversy and enough to generate a very heated, passionate debate on both sides. I think this is more because of media exposure and recent events in US History. Other snapshots in time might have yielded the same events if one had only had those media outlets available. The book, "Duel" gives a good illustration and perhaps somewhat accurate portal into the times of Alexander Hamilton, Aaron Burr and the zeitgeist of their time. The outrages of certain sects, the birth of Tammany Hall, etc..etc.....talk about discrimination! Whoa....these guys could go on and color did not necessarily evoke their wrath and condemnations my friend.
This is not unique. I'm not unique, you are not unique. This symbol of a time gone by is just more recent ergo the emotional content. In two generations, there will be no thriving pulse pursuing it's demise. That will come in time. No one really has to do much at all. Case in point. If you consider the fact that most who actually fought the Civil War died on, or around, the turn/birth of the 20st century. Consider that these veterans and civilians passed down their hatreds, beliefs, and other psyche on to their children, albeit slightly dilluted. Assume that most of those people perished on, or around 1970-1990. That leaves these "time honored" traditions passed on to generation 3 and 4 albeit, dilluted even more. In short, by the time this latest generation (4) leaves this planet, the thoughts, fears, and emotions of that time will have been relegated to books, DVD's and other digital media and not much more. You just can't hold those emotions forever.
Afterall, you don't hear people squaking about the Jacobins in the last 50 years, now do you? It simply won't matter at some point or at the very least, it will be relegated to a footnote.
Why the diatribe? Simple. Over time, all transgressions tend to "soften" simply because there is no direct emotional involvement. The Great Grandfathers of that Civil War era and their corresponding great grandchildren are well into adulthood and have but a few letters, relics, and fading pics unto which to carry this cause. I sympathize with those that take emotional defense to this symbol but, the symbol is much more than the knee-jerk reaction by some that think it was only a symbol of hate and discontent. Read your history. The days of King Cotton (the real cause of the war, alwasy comes down to economics, just ask Hitler) and the loss of that way of life are what it symbolizes to some to include the baggage of that time. It's more complicated than a simple symbol. It's a generation in time which endured the worst war this country has ever seen.
And while it may not fade as much as some would like, it will definitely fade. Just look how far we have come since 1965? Despite what some may think, the US is nothing like it was just 45 years ago. What makes you think this symbol can endure for whatever reason, all that much longer?
Oh yeah, here it is. The bald-faced effort to make one group of americans (southerners) feel, quite literally, ashamed of who they are and their heritage, while at the same time creating immense pride among another group, african americans, as "righteous victims and fighers against injustice".
Sorry Charlie, it wont fly. Southerners will never be ashamed of their history or ancestors. You could perhaps make us say it by holding a gun to our head, but that doesnt mean we BELEIVE it.
If you are so proud of america, why must you be called "african american"? Eh? No other group requires such a distinction. Not even Southerners!
Perhaps you are so proud of all the great things that the continent of Africa has brought to the rest of the world over the last 250 years? Is that it? Hmmmm....
PS: My ancestors, who were southerners, were also directly connected to the Founding of this country AND served with distinction in both World Wars, some giving their lives. So what, Ive got to go back and sort out who I should be "ashamed of" and who I should be proud of? NEVER. And you just have to deal with that, hoss.
Yeah, most people are just called whatever country they are from. Too bad we don't have that privileged since that knowledge was stripped away by your ancestors. Why only the the last 250 year? Why not the other few thousand humans have existed?
Yeah, most people are just called whatever country they are from. Too bad we don't have that privileged since that knowledge was stripped away by your ancestors. Why only the the last 250 year? Why not the other few thousand humans have existed?
Whose ancestors stripped the African Americans of their heritage? If I recall correctly, weren't the slaves sold out by other Africans?
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It's simply one of the more recent
