Beltline News (Atlanta, Portal: homes, buyers, deed)

[MathmanMathman]

Originally Posted by waronxmas

Besides, if it is just a "kid's Master's thesis", we lucked out and got a really smart kid to give the city the idea:

Technically it was his prof/advisor that gave him the idea for his thesis.

[MathmanMathman]

Originally Posted by waronxmas

I don't get that same feeling. Ryan Gravel's original thesis was purely transit, then once word out the idea of adding the park system was added, then the redevelopment component was added, then the art element was added, and so on. It truly is organic and I cannot fathom why you would think otherwise.

Yeah, but all this stuff was added on when everything was and still is "on paper". That's not organic. Organic would mean that community growth and development patterns were trending toward this without central control. Then we could see that a light rail loop would tie this up nicely. As it is, we are hoping this will spur development and in the process, they are adding development and parks on a wing-and-a-prayer. The approach sounds like an old fashioned Communist centrally controlled plan with political arm twisting of the railroads to not mess things up and give rail access.

I'm not really against the Beltline but a lot of work and a lot of money is going into what could be described as a developer's dream. We aren't sure this is going to live up to expectations and we want to spend $3 billion (and as usual, it will probably soar in cost). It just feels to me as if we are taking a $3 billion (or more) gamble.

[waronxmas]

Originally Posted by MathmanMathman

Yeah, but all this stuff was added on when everything was and still is "on paper". That's not organic. Organic would mean that community growth and development patterns were trending toward this without central control. Then we could see that a light rail loop would tie this up nicely. As it is, we are hoping this will spur development and in the process, they are adding development and parks on a wing-and-a-prayer. The approach sounds like an old fashioned Communist centrally controlled plan with political arm twisting of the railroads to not mess things up and give rail access.

I don't mean to come off as being offensive towards you (I'm not at all), but that's a rather naive way of looking at it. Projects this big do not happen purely as an organic act. Ever.

In most cases, it's a gigantic corporation or a the municipality itself that kicks things off and then the community joins in afterwards. In fact, I am unaware of any large city that has ever implemented a transit or redevelopment plan on this scale organically and with out central direction from a goverment or corporation.

Unless you have information to the contrary.

Originally Posted by MathmanMathman

I'm not really against the Beltline but a lot of work and a lot of money is going into what could be described as a developer's dream. We aren't sure this is going to live up to expectations and we want to spend $3 billion (and as usual, it will probably soar in cost). It just feels to me as if we are taking a $3 billion (or more) gamble.

Wait, didn't you just rag on a supposed commie based central control element to the way the Beltline is coming about?

In this country a massive infrastructure project will either be a developer's dream (pure, unrestricted free marketism) or it is a pseudo socialist and private business partnership. At least in the latter we have a say at some level as residents.

[MathmanMathman]

Originally Posted by waronxmas

I don't mean to come off as being offensive towards you (I'm not at all), but that's a rather naive way of looking at it. Projects this big do not happen purely as an organic act. Ever.

In most cases, it's a gigantic corporation or a the municipality itself that kicks things off and then the community joins in afterwards. In fact, I am unaware of any large city that has ever implemented a transit or redevelopment plan on this scale organically and with out central direction from a goverment or corporation.

Unless you have information to the contrary.

That's sort of the point. It is very large and artificial. So I have my doubts about diving in spending billions when that money might be better spent elsewhere. We have this static utopian vision about a process that is very dynamic.

Wait, didn't you just rag on a supposed commie based central control element to the way the Beltline is coming about?

In this country a massive infrastructure project will either be a developer's dream (pure, unrestricted free marketism) or it is a pseudo socialist and private business partnership. At least in the latter we have a say at some level as residents.

I'm not against having a Beltline if we are far enough along with present development that we are confident of its success. I just wonder if we're forcing something that's akin to the past where socialist urban planners' big dreams in the end clashed with reality. We're betting billions resting on a Masters Thesis with followup "papers" citing that seminal work.

[Ohhsweetconcord]

Originally Posted by MathmanMathman

That's sort of the point. It is very large and artificial. So I have my doubts about diving in spending billions when that money might be better spent elsewhere. We have this static utopian vision about a process that is very dynamic.

Transportation is always, by your definition, large and static. Neighborhoods develop along transportation paths, which spurs further transportation. It doesn't work the other way around.

I'm not against having a Beltline if we are far enough along with present development that we are confident of its success. I just wonder if we're forcing something that's akin to the past where socialist urban planners' big dreams in the end clashed with reality. We're betting billions resting on a Masters Thesis with followup "papers" citing that seminal work.

What does it matter if its a Master's thesis. All transportation ideas start with a central plan. There is no way around that. Development in many of the areas the Beltline will serve has already been underway for 20 years and it doesn't appear to be slowing down.

All American cities started out with a centrally organized grid plan. Is that socialist? And if it is, then what the heck does socialism even mean anymore?

[MathmanMathman]

Originally Posted by Ohhsweetconcord

Transportation is always, by your definition, large and static. Neighborhoods develop along transportation paths, which spurs further transportation. It doesn't work the other way around.

We're sure of that concerning roads, but not rail. The MARTA rail lines followed developed routes but even then we didn't see development at MARTA rail stations. Things like the Linderbergh project was nudged along by MARTA when nothing was happening there for years. It is the hope that the Beltline will naturally spur development but the Beltline will include project sponsored development along its route. It is clear roads spurring development works as we see for example with I-285 but not so with this proposed Beltline.

What does it matter if its a Master's thesis.

The motivation was a guy wanting a topic for his thesis to earn a Masters'. Guess I'd fell better if it was worthy of a PhD.

All transportation ideas start with a central plan. There is no way around that. Development in many of the areas the Beltline will serve has already been underway for 20 years and it doesn't appear to be slowing down.

All American cities started out with a centrally organized grid plan. Is that socialist? And if it is, then what the heck does socialism even mean anymore?

Not always as some city grids are somewhat haphazard like Atlanta. But for those that do, they plan for future growth if it happens.

However, this Beltline is going in come hell-or-high-water. And the proponents stress that the Beltline, in many places, is going through areas relatively undeveloped or have fallen into disuse. The major thrust of the Beltline project is revitalization rather than addressing a transportation issue. It's addressing a hope rather than a need.

[toll_booth]

The good: The shovels are finally hitting the Beltline, and the first phase should be done in a year or so!

The bad: Few, if any, "keep off" or "under construction" signs or ropes?? C'mon, they can't even spare some wooden stakes and plastic orange tape (or whatever that stuff is) to cordon off the construction zone?

[koko339]

Here's some cool pics of the recently opened Phase 2 of the High Line in Manhattan. Another rail to trail project that looks awesome!
Here Now, An Impressionistic Stroll Up Phase 2 of The High Line - High Line Opening Chronicles - Curbed NY

[arjay57]

Originally Posted by koko339

Here's some cool pics of the recently opened Phase 2 of the High Line in Manhattan. Another rail to trail project that looks awesome!
Here Now, An Impressionistic Stroll Up Phase 2 of The High Line - High Line Opening Chronicles - Curbed NY

I'd like to know how they keep their art from being vandalized.

[Adric]

Originally Posted by arjay57

I'd like to know how they keep their art from being vandalized.

Lots and lots of Rain-X. The paint just beads up and drips off.