DOT Returns Revised Transportation Wish List to Atlanta Region (Kennesaw: subdivision, to live in)

[neil0311]

Originally Posted by StAubin

quite alot of people in east cobb use the North Springs Park and Ride to get to Atlanta.

OK...so they are already served. Would those same people start going to Cumberland Mall instead? Here is what the Cobb Commissioner who represents East Cobb has to say about things as quoted in an op-ed piece in the MDJ:

The Marietta Daily Journal - Dick Yarbrough It’s as clear as a goat’s nose The need to derail light rail

"I asked my county commissioner Bob Ott, about Davis’ opinion piece. He just chuckled, which tells me he found it more amusing than I did. Unlike Davis, Ott has serious skin in this game. The Cumberland Galleria area is in his district. That alone would make you think that Ott would be a proponent for the light rail line. It is quite the opposite. He is firmly opposed, and for reasons better than Davis’ arguments for the rail line.

“It is quite simple,” Ott says. “Cobb County is not getting its money’s worth. Only a very small portion of the line — perhaps less than a mile — would be in Cobb.”

The Cobb commissioner says the biggest problem with the current regional transit planning — are you listening Atlanta Regional Commission and Mr. Davis? — is that it is all about trying to get people back into Atlanta. “Transit,” he says, “needs to take people where they want to go, not where planners want them to go. Most people in Cobb don’t want to go to Atlanta. They want to get around Cobb County easier.” Amen, brother Bob!

Ott was pushing for a massive redesign of the Windy Hill interchange at a cost of $120 million and a $110 million redesign of the nearby Windy Hill-Cobb Parkway interchange, saying the projects would have benefited commuters all across Cobb. “That would have had a huge impact,” he said. That idea was killed in favor of the rail line.

Cobb is not a bedroom community where people go to Atlanta and back. I-285 scrambled our traffic patterns forever. Davis should know that. If the SPLOST poobahs were really interested in making things easier for us, they should try to get us from Cumberland to Perimeter, not Cumberland to the Arts Center. Maybe they should sit in their cars on I-285 at Roswell Road for a few hours each day and then take another look at their proposal."

[Cameron H]

Originally Posted by neil0311

Most people in Cobb don’t want to go to Atlanta. They want to get around Cobb County easier.” [/b]Amen, brother Bob!
[/i]

So traffic congestion isn't a problem between Cobb County and Atlanta?

[Craziaskowboi]

Forget a wish list. I'm putting the upgrade of GA 316 to a six- to eight-lane limited-access highway on the arm-twist list.

[arjay57]

Originally Posted by Cameron H

So traffic congestion isn't a problem between Cobb County and Atlanta?

It's a mess if you live in the city of Atlanta. Streets like West Paces, Powers Ferry and Roswell Road are swamped with Cobb commuters, as well as Atlanta commuters heading north..

However, I don't see a rail line to Midtown is going to have much impact on that.

[neil0311]

Originally Posted by Cameron H

So traffic congestion isn't a problem between Cobb County and Atlanta?

Personally, I travel it all the time and don't believe it is. There is a far bigger problem for people traveling on I-575 and I-75 north of the perimeter heading down to or up from I-285 and other exits in Cobb. Traveling I-75 south of I-285 to the merge is not a big problem. In fact, that's the part of the road that typically moves pretty well. The congestion usually only picks up at the merge with I-85 at the connector on the south end and at the I-285 interchange on the north end.

Of course, that's not the real question. The real question is where are the MOST pressing problems, and where are the areas where MOST people travel. Where is the bang for the buck going to be greatest to solve the greatest number of issues. It is pretty obvious that a large number of Cobb residents, elected leaders, journalists, and my neighbors don't believe that a rail line from Cumberland to Midtown provides that for Cobb. Would a rail line to Cumberland be a good thing when considered in a vacuum? Sure.

I'm also not one who buys the increased crime argument. I know enough from experience that's generally not a valid argument. So if we had all the money in the world to build and operate transportation, then sure...a light rail line to Cumberland would be great. If we could guarantee that funding and the will existed to build the line all the way to Kennesaw or Acworth, then that too might influence my thinking. The reality and fact here is that this is a zero sum game. To build the rail means that other projects cannot and will not get done. As well, there is no guarantee that there will be a second TSPLOST when this one expires or that an extension to Kennesaw or Acworth would be part of the project list.

As a separate conversation....The project sponsors agree that it will be 10 years before completion of the line to Cumberland and 15 to 20 for an extension north (assuming even possible). Who knows what the needs of Cobb will be in 10 to 20 years? Think back to 1991. I lived here then and things have changed.

The bottom line to this is not a question of do we build transit or not. Of course we do. The real question is WHAT projects make most sense and have the most impact to the people paying for them. I'm absolutely willing to listen to anyone who can rationally explain to me how someone in Acworth, Kennesaw, North Cobb, Cherokee, or even Marietta gets useful benefit from a rail line that goes from somewhere not close to them to somewhere they generally don't want to go. On top of that, they would have to drive to get to the line, and the roads between their homes and the proposed line are where some of the heaviest congestion exists.

What have you solved other than making the Cumberland CID feel good and making residents of Atlanta feel good with an easier commute to the Cumberland area, along with those people who don't care about fiscal or rational sense and just want transit for its own sake...anywhere...everywhere? What has been done in the way of ridership studies? Where are the statistics that show what expected ridership will be in 10 years? If they exist, please point me to them.

[arjay57]

Originally Posted by neil0311

What has been done in the way of ridership studies? Where are the statistics that show what expected ridership will be in 10 years? If they exist, please point me to them.

I'd like to see that information too.

In my opinion we need to think long term with the TIA plan. Whether it's roads or rail, it's going to take years to implement most of those projects.

[arjay57]

40 years after the MARTA referendum folks in Cobb are still having the argument about whether rail brings crime:

The Marietta Daily Journal - State Sen Stoner is first Cobb lawmaker to give light rail public support

One of the chief criticisms of the proposed light-rail line from Cumberland Mall to MARTA’s Art Center station in midtown Atlanta has been a concern that criminals will use the transit system to come into Cobb, a concern echoed by Lance Lamberton, president of the Cobb County Taxpayers Association.

“In Portland, Ore., not too many years ago, they installed a light-rail system,” Lamberton said. “There was a major-league increase in crime in the areas right along where the light rail was established. And they had to beef up security. They had to increase the amount of patrols. And of course it increased operating costs. A real concern I have, and I think many, many people in Cobb County have with this whole idea of light rail coming in here is this backdoor way of trying to get MARTA into Cobb and then bringing all the crime that currently lives in Fulton.”

[State Sen. Doug] Stoner, who hosted the meeting, said crime increases with a rise in population, not transit.

“I’ve heard that issue for years,” Stoner said. “I’m a native Cobb Countian: I’ve heard it used in not allowing MARTA into this county. Honestly, I’ve grown up listening to that rhetoric for a very long time … We’re now a county with almost 700,000 people. Usually, when we have more people we have more problems, a more complex society. So to say one thing is the reason for all of that I think is a very (simplified) explanation for everything.”

Wilkerson said criminals tend to use personal vehicles to evade police, not transit systems.

[toll_booth]

Originally Posted by neil0311

Again....the rail to/from Cumberland is about 85% of the funding allocation to Cobb. Everything you state is in the category of economic impact and not impact to transportation congestion. This tax is not supposed be about economic impact, although that would be a nice side benefit. The Cumberland CID is the primary backer of this light rail project to Cumberland, and for obvious reasons.

When you consider that the initial stretch to Cumberland will take almost 10 years, and cost close to a billion dollars, and will serve very few RESIDENTS of Cobb County, that's a problem. There are many people just like me who live in West Cobb and either work in Cobb or in North Fulton. Same with East Cobb. Why would someone in East Cobb drive to Cumberland to go to Atlanta? Are there even park/ride facilities planned?

There are many other projects that could give me and others much more direct benefit for the same or less money, and much sooner. If it is ever built, it will take close to 20 years for light rail to reach Town Center, and at what cost? $2 billion in today's dollars?

Neil, how many times are we going to have to explain that this is the FIRST stage of the light rail? Besides, if we were to do everything that every county wanted, this referendum would be massively more expensive. And because Georgia is such a heavily taxophobic state, that would make referendum passage even less likely than it already is.

[Cameron H]

Originally Posted by neil0311

Of course, that's not the real question. The real question is where are the MOST pressing problems, and where are the areas where MOST people travel. Where is the bang for the buck going to be greatest to solve the greatest number of issues.

That's a real question, but it's not the real question. Immediate and long term, today's problems and tomorrow's -- you have to address both. As you say, light rail does diddly for immediate problems. Likewise, a series of short-term fixes -- adding and expanding roadways -- isn't going to be a sustainable solution for the future.

If your strategy is to only address the "most pressing problems" today, you can look forward to a future in which transportation is perpetually fubar because you've never made the investment in a long-term, sustainable solution.

I'm not dismissing the concern, by the way. It's a heavy lift to convince people to spend their tax dollars today on something that will really pay off in twenty years. Unfortunately, we can't travel into the future and hold the referendum in 2032. If we could, I suspect Cobb County residents would pass it overwhelmingly.

[bu2]

Originally Posted by Cameron H

I would say there's tension between the two, but they're not necessarily contradictory. I think Atlanta needs roadway expansion and improvement to more efficiently serve its existing sprawl, right now. I don't think addressing the existing problem necessarily perpetuates it -- if you can alleviate the existing issues in the short-term while also offering a new long-term vision for smarter growth, that seems like a pretty good strategy.

And what's the alternative? You can try to strangle the existing sprawl with inadequate infrastructure and hope to force people into the city, but that seems suicidal.

And you can strangle the city with inadequate infrastructure and force people and jobs into the far suburbs. That inadequate infrastructure includes the lack of roads, particularly arterial roads in the inner city.