DOT Returns Revised Transportation Wish List to Atlanta Region (Macon: low income, tax)

[Listennow32]

Well if you ask me.. I think some bucks need to be cut from the Beltline project and roadway projects. The money really needs to be put towards regional transportation transit projects. Don't get me wrong I think the Beltline is a great idea, and yes we need to improve our roadways, but in the long-run neither really do much to solve the congestion that surrounds the city. In regards to the Beltline, the type of technologically they wish to implement is too slow for the average commuter and it doesn't really hit any large employment centers. As far as roadways, we have an extensive network as it is and we will continual have to update it as our population grows, but if Atlanta wants to become a major global player, it needs to cut back on the roadway projects and make inroads into building a hefty transit network. Therefore, I think if some of the dollars could be shaved off of these type of projects, this argument would become irrelevant.

[testa50]

Originally Posted by StAubin

Are you shure, i am quite positive marta runs on standard gauge.

Metropolitan Atlanta Rapid Transit Authority - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Good catch--it's BART that uses wide gauge.

Still, CSX will not allow a mainline to be converted to MARTA, ever. Commuter rail could work, though.

[architect77]

Originally Posted by MathmanMathman

I have no problem with rail for freight. Moving stuff by rail and on-and-off loading to trucks makes sense if it reduces long-haul trucks on the road.

That can't be true. That's a drive of almost 300 miles. I suggest they at least move to Virginia.

Why? People can drive or fly there. Why should HSR improve it?

But they do know how to pay for HSR? Use those funds.

I would guess at least 100 people in Raleigh/Durham work in the DC area and fly up there every week for 3-4 days then fly back.

NC's tourism and accessibility will be enhanced by faster rail service because millions in the Northeast don't even own a car, and rail is the lowest common denominator of travel, accessible to everyone and no advance planning necessary. Rail travel is very leisurely and enjoyable, so perhaps shorter trip times will get more visitors to the state.

The "HSR" upgrades are piecemeal expenditures well under a $1 billion. If redirected to rebuilding I-95, it would be enough for about 30 miles to be rebuilt.

Virginia is about to put $5 tolls on I-95. It just got approval, NC has approval also.

[StAubin]

Originally Posted by testa50

Good catch--it's BART that uses wide gauge.

Still, CSX will not allow a mainline to be converted to MARTA, ever. Commuter rail could work, though.

Unfortunatly CSX does not want any passanger trains running on their track. Hopefully they will come around if public support is strong enough for commuter rail.

[K-SawDude]

Originally Posted by StAubin

Unfortunatly CSX does not want any passanger trains running on their track. Hopefully they will come around if public support is strong enough for commuter rail.

The Beltline folks told me at a meeting that CSX is more amenable to sharing the corridor than Norfolk Southern, but that it's still an uphill battle.

I'm not persuaded that this alternate rail proposal up to Acworth is as cheap or as possible as they're making it out to be. Still, it ought to be considered in this conversation. I'd like to see better data on it before deciding whether or not it's better than light rail from Arts Center to Cumberland. (I'm someone who would be interested in using either line.)

[testa50]

Originally Posted by StAubin

Unfortunatly CSX does not want any passanger trains running on their track. Hopefully they will come around if public support is strong enough for commuter rail.

They look at it on a case by case basis, and they typically want you to fork over a ton of cash to use their tracks, but they have shown a history of cooperating in public transport projects.

Look at Sunrail in Florida, which is finally going forward. It is a 61-mile corridor on existing CSX mainline (long enough to go from downtown Atlanta to Rome) which clocks in at $1.2 billion (although the numbers are a bit more complicated than this, this is more or less the capital investment needed). The $1.2 billion includes about $600 million for the rights to use the tracks (which has factored into it the couple hundred million dollars needed to relocate terminals and upgrade alternate freight mainlines that will receive additional traffic), and about $600 million to construct the improvements to the actual passenger line.

As I said, GDOT owns a line that goes from downtown Marietta north to Blue Ridge, so once we get to Marietta we could extend north along 575 for a presumably far smaller price per mile (no need to purchase tracks or upgrade other tracks for displaced freight traffic).

If you're talking about a vitally important line for a railroad, they almost surely won't be willing to put in commuter rail. For instance, NS's line from Atlanta to the northwest is uber-important and they probably wouldn't EVER let us touch it. But on the southside, they have two separate lines to Macon, so that's why they have always talked so much about turning one of those into commuter rail.


This is all in contrast to the approach of building tracks alongside an existing mainline but within the same right-of-way--this is what the Beltline will almost surely do. Railroads typically expect a smaller lump sum cash payment for this, but they want their line completely upgraded which can be very expensive (for instance, if they have a single track, they might ask for a second track to be implemented or for space to be left for a second track; or they might ask for 100% grade separation).

All in all, I wouldn't say one railroad is better than another in terms of how willing they are to let us use their tracks. It all boils down to how important the particular track we're talking about is to the railroad that owns it.

[MathmanMathman]

Originally Posted by architect77

I would guess at least 100 people in Raleigh/Durham work in the DC area and fly up there every week for 3-4 days then fly back.

That's their choice then. We can't accommodate everyone's long distance commute. I strongly suggest they move closer to DC. Besides, that's not enough people to justify building an HSR.

NC's tourism and accessibility will be enhanced by faster rail service because millions in the Northeast don't even own a car, and rail is the lowest common denominator of travel, accessible to everyone and no advance planning necessary. Rail travel is very leisurely and enjoyable, so perhaps shorter trip times will get more visitors to the state.

So, rent-a-car. They'd probably do that anyway once they reach NC. I flew there and rented a car.

The "HSR" upgrades are piecemeal expenditures well under a $1 billion. If redirected to rebuilding I-95, it would be enough for about 30 miles to be rebuilt.

Virginia is about to put $5 tolls on I-95. It just got approval, NC has approval also.

If they are charging to drive I-95, the money ought to be used for I-95.

[arjay57]

Originally Posted by MathmanMathman

That's their choice then. We can't accommodate everyone's long distance commute.

If you can shorten the commute of 100 people that's money well spent.

[MathmanMathman]

Originally Posted by testa50

As I said, GDOT owns a line that goes from downtown Marietta north to Blue Ridge, so once we get to Marietta we could extend north along 575 for a presumably far smaller price per mile (no need to purchase tracks or upgrade other tracks for displaced freight traffic).

I can trace a line from Blue Ridge to about Whitestone. It disappears into I-575 at that point. Was I-575 built on top of it? I can't find another line from Marietta.

If you're talking about a vitally important line for a railroad, they almost surely won't be willing to put in commuter rail. For instance, NS's line from Atlanta to the northwest is uber-important and they probably wouldn't EVER let us touch it. But on the southside, they have two separate lines to Macon, so that's why they have always talked so much about turning one of those into commuter rail.

Can the government use eminent domain in reverse, sort of? Seize it for public use, after which the railroad would have to demonstrate it cannot possibly accommodate a commuter train.

As for other routes, I don't see the need for a Macon route or even the so-called Brain Train route. I don't see rail connection to Athens, Macon, or Rome as needed. Not even a rail route to Blue Ridge. But something connecting to Atlanta through Cobb...definitely.

This is all in contrast to the approach of building tracks alongside an existing mainline but within the same right-of-way--this is what the Beltline will almost surely do. Railroads typically expect a smaller lump sum cash payment for this, but they want their line completely upgraded which can be very expensive (for instance, if they have a single track, they might ask for a second track to be implemented or for space to be left for a second track; or they might ask for 100% grade separation).

I was thinking a Cobb commuter train route could be a start and if it was busy enough it could justify building a dedicated line beside it. Building a neighboring line will take a long time, cost a lot, and even in places like Marietta, Kennesaw, and Acworth, the ROW corridor might not be wide enough and complicate things. The commuter rail line would be available in a few years, cost far less, and can be minimally disruptive except perhaps to rail freight.

[MathmanMathman]

Originally Posted by arjay57

If you can shorten the commute of 100 people that's money well spent.

Please tell me you don't work for GDOT. Pretty Please.