White flight — to the city (Ideal: health insurance, mortgage, closing)

[cityrover]

Originally Posted by JPD

This assumes all intown areas are rough. George Chong, Pless, and other posters on here who live intown prove your entire premise wrong.

you missed the entire premise

it is about the appeal of difference

they are played as Being rough as this further enhances said appeal. Pay attention please

excuse grammar.

[cityrover]

Originally Posted by arjay57

That doesn't describe my neighborhood at all (or any of the other neighborhoods I know about).

Many of the folks around here have been in the area for generations and we've seen all kinds of "flight" come and go. For us it's just home. Many have the resources to live anywhere they want but they stay put because of the convenience and the very high quality of life. Great schools, the best cultural amenities, outstanding grocery store, restaurants and other shopping. And world class public transit if that's your thing.

One of the attractions for me personally is the diversity of the housing stock. Every dang house on my street was individually designed and built. Fortunately, Atlanta is also one of those cities where you have plenty of room to spread out if you want. I love our old garage out back and the shed I call "the barn," although they mostly just accumulate junk. We've had chickens, dogs. cats and always have a vegetable garden. Some folks like the smaller lots or condo/townhouse living and if the real estate market gets better we'll probably go that route too.

On the whole it's just a good place to live. That's true of many places in metro Atlanta but I don't see any reason for anybody to start getting smug about it.

we are talking about new residents. How are those related to people living there for generations ? totally different demographics and motivation

[JPD]

Originally Posted by cityrover

you missed the entire premise

it is about the appeal of difference

they are played as Being rough as this further enhances said appeal. Pay attention please

excuse grammar.

Some people do behave the way you describe. No argument there. But you are painting the entire trend of "white people moving back into the city" with that brush, and that is just plain false.

[K-SawDude]

Originally Posted by muxBuppie

1. Ofcourse during a recession revenues will fall. We have millions people out of work and businesses shut down!

Right. Revenues fall. Which is partly solved by raising taxes, partly by trying to add additional revenue with growth. This isn't rocket science. There's no a priori logical reason to absolutely exclude tax increases from the discussion. Every local, state, and national government considers tax increases when revenues are down. So I don't know why you're acting like that's such a nutty notion.

2. Your charts don't even include inflation which has constantly risen.

Yes, they do. They adjust for inflation to compare across decades.
.

You also know nothing about the Europe or world debt crises going on now.

I think my last post indicates that I at least "know something" about Europe. The primary difference between you and me is that I'm resisting the tendency both to demonize Europe (which you're doing) or to apotheosize it (which you CLAIM I'm doing, which I'm very obviously not).

Europe is a mixed bag. For different reasons, some countries in Europe are doing fine with their socialist-leaning mixed economies. Other counties aren't. One could argue Greece tried to be too socialistic without making the hard choices (like, I don't know, actually collecting taxes to pay for all their over-the-top spending). Ireland arguably was too capitalistic and got themselves into trouble by trusting investment bankers way too much and then, like the U.S., socializing the banks' losses on the backs of the people.

Cityrover may be correct that Scandanvia is on a bad path. We'll see. Germany from all accounts is in a strong position in terms of their own economy. The problem is that the less strong European countries and the euro may drag them down into the mire, too. But that has little to nothing to do with Germany's revenue stream.

[arjay57]

Originally Posted by tigers84

Maybe your two neighborhoods are equally safe/unsafe. Who knows. But if you think every neighborhood is as safe as every other, well....

How about comparing West End with Alpharetta? Or around the stadium to Habersham Road. Is there no difference in level and/or types of crime?

Of course crime varies by neighborhood. That's why it doesn't make sense for folks to constantly bang on "crime in the city."

I'd wager that most neighborhoods in the city are just as safe as their counterparts in the burbs.

[K-SawDude]

Originally Posted by cityrover

No. Those systems used to work. They don't anymore. They worked because you had a layer of very overpriced labor that had so much pork in it it could afford to pay massive taxes to support the limited uniform population who did not have that income buffer.

As population grows, that income buffer does not grow fast enough or declines for a variety of reasons. What happens when taxing the richest isn't doing it anymore?

I want to be crystal clear here. I am NOT suggesting the U.S. would just magically be in a strong position if it could adopt a Sweden-style economy. That's not even a practically implementable possibility considering how different we are demographically and in terms of scale.

All I'm saying is that part of our revenue problems at present could be alleviated by raising tax rates proportionally higher for the wealthiest Americans. They've benefitted from relatively higher percentage increases in their incomes compared to the lower classes over the last two decades (due largely in part to tax breaks that benefitted them more than anyone else). They can afford it more than average consumers and smaller business owners, both of which are going to be more of the drivers of future growth than hedge fund managers, IMO.

I don't think spending cuts alone, which are going to hit the lower and middle classes hardest, are going to help us out all that much in the short term.

Scandinavia is presently on a massive downhill slope. It is not talked much because as population and % of euro gdp it isnt enough to raise eyebrows and because they are not bankrupting and threatening the euro yet. But give it a few more years and the systems will be depleted of money, just like the US is.

Progressive taxation is fine, BUT, you have to be seriously joking if you think scandinavia or whoever else is actually a progressive tax system. It is a mix of flat tax (commodity tax), vat tax (sales tax give or take) and income tax. The income tax is the progressive part, but hardly the big budget feeder.

The commodity tax is where it is at. Say, how do you feel about paying 180 000$ for a VW passat in denmark? And im not even joking about that number. That tax is paid by anyone, regardless if you make 3000 euros or 400000 euros. Now, you can see where the real income is at.

I appreciate your perspective here on European tax systems. I can see how it's less progressive than I initially suggested. We'll just have to see how Scandinavia does in the long run. I have a feeling both our system and theirs is going to be relatively weaker in the next few decades than they've been in the last few. But I also think (hope?) we're all going to end up fine as well. Maybe a slightly lower standard of living, but not god-awful.

[rcsteiner]

Originally Posted by arjay57

Braver in what sense, RC?

Mainly financial. Having to deal with Atlanta utilities, property taxes, etc.

My wife and I both work in no-man's land (Cumberland), but we did quite a bit of research in 2005 when we were looking (10 mile radius of work), and chose an OTP location mainly because it was less expensive to live in unincorporated Cobb than it would have been in Atlanta/Fulton. I certainly don't regret it.

Just being free of Georgia Power makes it seem worthwhile. We're in Greystone territory.

$20 says my neighborhood is as safe as your'n.

Probably, but I like our subdivision. We've had two unlocked cars broken into in almost six years, both by the main road, and one garage door (small one) was kicked in. And some mailboxes knocked around. That's the extent of the crime issues I'm aware of. I think some folks from an adjacent neighborhood were using our pool w/o permission, too...

[arjay57]

Originally Posted by rcsteiner

Probably, but I like our subdivision. We've had two unlocked cars broken into in almost six years, both by the main road, and one garage door (small one) was kicked in. And some mailboxes knocked around. That's the extent of the crime issues I'm aware of. I think some folks from an adjacent neighborhood were using our pool w/o permission, too...

Pretty much the same around here.

I hear you on the property taxes. That's really aggravating and if I move that would be the reason.

Utilities are probably about the same everywhere, except we're paying for that massive water/sewer overhaul. I'm actually okay with that, because it's basic infrastructure and it had to be done. The system is well over 100 years old and we'd kicked the can down the road for generations. The same issues will hit the suburban counties sooner or later too.

At least when we're done we'll have a first class system.

[goofy328]

Originally Posted by aries4118

I am usually an optimist about things, but I am wary about this.


My fear is that this will just be a "trading places"--instead of true socioeconomic integration and urban enrichment.


Wealthy, affluent urban core vs. Poor suburbs--and with way less services than one would find in the urban core/city.

this is happening all over the country. suburbs have to step their game up; it is that simple. it is a matter of sustainability and sufficiency. it hurts suburbs, because their own tax revenue probably sucks with all of the section 8, or housing projects, or whatever, but they will have to get it together.

[arjay57]

Some suburbs may be weakened, but they're the ones that have other problems as well.

In general the suburbs will continue to thrive. They'll become more urbanized and efficient but they are certainly not going away. That's where 90% of Americans live.

I don't see the increased popularity of cities as an either/or thing. They're simply offering folks another choice.