Question for those against commuter rails (Atlanta, Dallas: subdivision, taxes, costs)

[Merin]

What are your ideas to help ease traffic congestion?

[sweettea1]

I'd like to see those little Jetsons flying cars. But I'm not against commuter rails, I'd just still like to see those little cars.

[rackensack]

I'm not against commuter rail either -- all for it, in fact. But I'm skeptical about the degree to which it'll improve traffic and sprawl in an area like Atlanta, where the commute patterns are increasingly suburb-to-suburb, and where the development pattern is so entrenched in the "self-contained subdivision with one entrance to a secondary feeder/collector that in turn feeds an artery" mode, with no grid, and few possible alternative routes.

[Parsec]

What's the diff between commuter rail and MARTA? It looks like commuter rail could eventually be extended further (i.e. to Athens), but it has less stops. Would they all feed into Five Points? This would not be useful for a majority of riders if they have to then hop onto MARTA and go back North to Midtown or Buckhead. It's also going to be much costlier on a per-ride basis.

We should start tolling every major road leading into the perimeter and use the toll money to pay for the commuter rail. Just make sure the toll is higher than the cost of the commuter rail fare so people have an incentive to stop driving. OR, we can start metering every spot in downtown, midtown, Buckhead, and the garages can collude to jack up prices to $20/day. It's set up that way in other cities like NYC and Boston and I think that works better -- make parking and tolls so expensive that people will WANT to take public transportation.

[Parsec]

I was just thinking, it's probably not a good idea to look at older cities like NYC, DC, Boston, Chicago, etc.. and try to compare our infrastructure with theirs. Instead, maybe we can look at Dallas' DART. People on their boards seem to love it and the trains/buses leave very frequently and can be used to actually get to places you want to go. Atlanta should look at a newer city like Dallas and emulate the way they are successfully building their public transportation infrastructure from scratch.

[wxjay]

Originally Posted by Parsec

What's the diff between commuter rail and MARTA? It looks like commuter rail could eventually be extended further (i.e. to Athens), but it has less stops. Would they all feed into Five Points? This would not be useful for a majority of riders if they have to then hop onto MARTA and go back North to Midtown or Buckhead. It's also going to be much costlier on a per-ride basis.

Commuter rail, in this case, would use already existing rail lines for their trains, significantly cutting the costs of improving/enhancing the lines. Extending something like MARTA would cost almost $100 million per mile for high-speed rail services. Secondly commuter rails are just that - designed for commuters and so run on commuter hours (more frequent during morning and afternoon rush hours, with perhaps 1 other one for midday). The concept behind the two are quite different.

We should start tolling every major road leading into the perimeter and use the toll money to pay for the commuter rail. Just make sure the toll is higher than the cost of the commuter rail fare so people have an incentive to stop driving. OR, we can start metering every spot in downtown, midtown, Buckhead, and the garages can collude to jack up prices to $20/day. It's set up that way in other cities like NYC and Boston and I think that works better -- make parking and tolls so expensive that people will WANT to take public transportation.

Well, there are several problems with that approach, the most obvious being that this would NEVER be approved by voters or by councils who report to the voters. But, secondly, even if this were to happen, based on state law, revenues from fuel and toll taxes are NOT allowed to go into public transportation and must go solely to road improvements. So, going down this route is a lose-lose situation all around.

[wxjay]

Originally Posted by Parsec

I was just thinking, it's probably not a good idea to look at older cities like NYC, DC, Boston, Chicago, etc.. and try to compare our infrastructure with theirs. Instead, maybe we can look at Dallas' DART. People on their boards seem to love it and the trains/buses leave very frequently and can be used to actually get to places you want to go. Atlanta should look at a newer city like Dallas and emulate the way they are successfully building their public transportation infrastructure from scratch.

MARTA was designed to emulate Washington DC's METRO system, which is also fairly new compared to NYC and Boston's systems. We tried that route, and it failed miserably. Looking to Dallas won't help either. You cannot change the stubborn mentalities and political gridlock that exists here in Georgia through emulation.

[JPD]

If I were King of Atlanta there would be a transit referendum for all counties in the metro area that do not currently have MARTA. If you vote against MARTA (or some other sort of rail-based transit) expansion, but you drive into Fulton or Dekalb on a regular basis, you would have to pay a penalty every time you cross the Dekalb or Fulton county lines (with, perhaps, three freebies per month).

[wxjay]

^I have a feeling a coup d'etat would be coming REAL soon if that plan was implemented. Plus, the monitoring for that? You think traffic is bad now - what do you think monitoring stations would do to that?

[JPD]

Originally Posted by wxjay

^I have a feeling a coup d'etat would be coming REAL soon if that plan was implemented. Plus, the monitoring for that? You think traffic is bad now - what do you think monitoring stations would do to that?

Just use the technology they use on toll plazas now for Cruise Cards. No affect on traffic whatsoever.

I know the idea sounds radical, but it is defintely how MANY if not most Dekalb and Fulton residents feel about residents of other counties who prevented and continue to stonewall MARTA expansion yet come into our counties every day.

Coup, yeah right, Americans are WAY too complacent. There'll never be a coup in America.