atlanta city limits versus jacksonville city limits (Dunwoody, Carrollton: to buy, public school)

[bryantm3]

this is what i'm talking about y'all— atlanta's city limits are tiny and we have segregated government. the city of atlanta needs to straighten up and fly right— there's no reason our city limits should be this small and have such little impact on the surrounding area— i think this is the main reason overdevelopment has run rampant in cobb, gwinnett and now forsyth.

it's not without precedent— up until the 30s and 40s, atlanta regularly annexed new areas as it grew, even incorporated cities. east lake and west end are prime examples of this, incorporated cities that were annexed into atlanta.

however, as downtown atlanta became more populated by african americans as whites moved to the suburbs, the issue of race was the reason, i think the primary reason that atlanta stopped annexing new areas— the white population wouldn't allow it. after that came mismanagement and more mismanagement and now atlanta is starting to get a foothold again.

but really— it's ridiculous. i was at sage hill the other night and wanted to buy a bottle of wine (it was sunday). i couldn't, because sage hill isn't even in the city limits! even druid hills is not in the city limits. only 1 in 10 metro atlanta residents lives in the city limits!

i'm not saying we need to expand the city limits out to snellville and dawsonville, i just think atlanta needs to at least encompass most of what's inside 285. without that, organizing anything is a pain in the arse— zoning laws, historical preservation, creating more parks and beautification projects, etc.

[Bizurko]

I agree, however this will never happen.
A) people outside Atlanta will fight tooth and nail to not be associated with Atlanta. I have heard and seen a lot of areas will fight Atlanta on everything even if it makes complete and total sense just to spite Atlanta.
B) politics that's the reason we have the second highest number of counties in the u.s., gerrymandering.

I personally would love to see it, because that increase population which would increase federal grants given to the city, but oh well.

[ATLTJL]

I don't know if I would say that "most" southern cities have relatively small city limits...but a lot of them do.

Jacksonville has the largest city limits in the country. I think all of Duval county, or at least most of it, falls within Jacksonville city limits.

[bryantm3]

montgomery, charlotte, and augusta still have larger city limits than we do.

[chiatldal]

Originally Posted by ATLTJL

I don't know if I would say that "most" southern cities have relatively small city limits...but a lot of them do.

Jacksonville has the largest city limits in the country. I think all of Duval county, or at least most of it, falls within Jacksonville city limits.

I would have to disagree most major southern or even sunbelt cities have a much larger city limits. Atlanta have a city limit size of a Northeast or Midwestern city limit. Major Sun belt Metros that sprawl tend to have larger city limits.

Dallas 1,197,816 in 340.5
San Antonio 1,327,407 in 460.9
Jacksonville 821,784 in 747.0
Austin 790,390 in 297.9
Fort Worth 741,206 in 339.8
Charlotte 731,424 in 297.7
Memphis 646,889 in 315.1
Nashville 601,222 in 475.1
Louisville 597,337 in 325.2
Oklahoma City 579,999 in 606.4

Only Birmingham, Raleigh, Tampa, Orlando and Miami have a small city limits like Atlanta in the south. But they differ because they are in a lot larger counties. Atlanta 9th largest metro, 40 largest city, Fulton 48th most populated county.

Atlanta is larger than 3 of those cities that leave only Miami truly comparable. How ever Miami-Dade County is ranked 8th most populated. And it acts some what like a metropolitan government. Half of the Miami area population is under Miami-Dade legislative and Judicial power.

Atlanta small city limits, small county that have threats of secession fits. Is the center piece of a sprawling major sunbelt metro of over 5 million. That's way too much balkanization for a major Sunbelt city. This hurts the region with cooperation and cause too much unnecessary competition. But I also agree, with bryantm3, Bizurko, this will never happen. The state would actually have to help and stop throwing rocks.

[JoeP]

this is why city populatio is meaningless except when talking about city proper functions, gov't etc.

Atlanta is interesting because it's last real land grab was in the 50s, taking Buckhead, which makes it bigger in land area than older cities (particularly NE and Great Lakes cities) but smaller than younger Southern cities who are able to annex.

Jacksonville is not a good example because in land area it's the largest city in the country - possibly Anchorage is larger.

[chiatldal]

Originally Posted by JoeP

this is why city populatio is meaningless except when talking about city proper functions, gov't etc.

Atlanta is interesting because it's last real land grab was in the 50s, taking Buckhead, which makes it bigger in land area than older cities (particularly NE and Great Lakes cities) but smaller than younger Southern cities who are able to annex.

Jacksonville is not a good example because in land area it's the largest city in the country - possibly Anchorage is larger.

But that's the thing Atlanta is not that much older than Houston and Dallas. And it's not a Texas thing because smaller major cities in the south east from Nashville, Louisville, Memphis to Charlotte all have much larger city limits. Generally most major sunbelt city have large city limits, look at LA, Phoenix and San Diego.

14 of the US 25 largest cities by area are major Sunbelt cities, more than half. Major sunbelt cities as in metros that are over a million. New York and Indianapolis are the only major cities that are not sun belt cities, that are in the top 25 largest by area. The rest are smaller cities or places that are largely rural with some scenario that makes them defined as a city. But the largest Major cities by area, are dominate by the sunbelt.

There are a lot of NE and Midwest cities that have smaller city limits but Atlanta is comparable to Detroit and Philly city limit size. How ever Atlanta is a Sunbelt city, Sunbelt cities grow out ward more and tend to have larger city boundaries. Atlanta grow outward like it's peers but doesn't have a large city boundary like it's peers. The fact that Atlanta is one of the largest metros make even it even more awarded.

[ATLTJL]

Only Birmingham, Raleigh, Tampa, Orlando and Miami have a small city limits like Atlanta in the south.

Explains why I thought that, those are the cities I am most familiar with. Well, not Raleigh, but you get the idea....

Even if segregation wasn't the issue anymore, I think you would find most people fight against being annexed by Atlanta. Right or wrong, who knows, but that's the perception. Would you be keen on being annexed by a city that can't even keep its public school professionals from cheating? Do you want to pay outrageous sewage bills because the leadership neglected the sewer system for close to 100 years?

A lot of people move to outer areas specifically to get out from underneath the city of Atlanta. You can argue it until the end of time, but I think the overall perception of the city of Atlanta's leadership is that it is inept, corrupt, and based on a system of cronyism.

[Saintmarks]

The difference in Atlanta and the Texas cities: Georgia's counties are much smaller and in the metro Atlanta area act like municipal cities. I am now in Collin County, the suburban county to the north of Dallas County. We have one city over 200,000 (Plano) and two will over 100,000 (McKinney where I live and Frisco where I work). There are several more suburbs closer into Dallas over 200,000.... Irving, Garland and Arlington and many move over 100,000... Grand Prairie, Carrollton, Mesquite, etc, etc... Nothing like this in metro Atlanta. Dallas has well over a million, Fort Worth over 700,000. Collin County provides no municipal services like sewer, water, police, fire, etc.

The difference is the counties out here do not perform municipal services like Georgia counties do. No School systems, no fire departments, no libraries, no police, no water, etc, etc. When an area here is ripe for development, it must come into a city. A map of the DFW metro area will show the whole of the developed area colored in into one city or another. Collin County does have a sheriff for rural areas north of here, but when you are outside one of these incorporated cities, the county is as rural as areas 100 miles east or west with no municipal services.

In metro Atlanta, the cities compete with the county for municipal services. You will find the majority of the people in unincorporated areas of the major suburban counties (Cobb, Gwinnett, DeKalb and on down the list) get police, fire, water, sewer, schools, etc from the county. They see no reason to come into the governance of one of the cities. The main reason there has been a rush in the last decade was because of the areas in North Fulton wanting more local control because of mis-management in the Fulton government and a desire for more local control. This attitude did creep over into Dunwoody and now the proposed city of Ashford/Brookhaven.

So nutshell: Georgia counties in metro Atlanta might as well be considered cities.

[WanderingImport]

Originally Posted by Saintmarks

The difference in Atlanta and the Texas cities: Georgia's counties are much smaller and in the metro Atlanta area act like municipal cities. I am now in Collin County, the suburban county to the north of Dallas County. We have one city over 200,000 (Plano) and two will over 100,000 (McKinney where I live and Frisco where I work). There are several more suburbs closer into Dallas over 200,000.... Irving, Garland and Arlington and many move over 100,000... Grand Prairie, Carrollton, Mesquite, etc, etc... Nothing like this in metro Atlanta. Dallas has well over a million, Fort Worth over 700,000. Collin County provides no municipal services like sewer, water, police, fire, etc.

The difference is the counties out here do not perform municipal services like Georgia counties do. No School systems, no fire departments, no libraries, no police, no water, etc, etc. When an area here is ripe for development, it must come into a city. A map of the DFW metro area will show the whole of the developed area colored in into one city or another. Collin County does have a sheriff for rural areas north of here, but when you are outside one of these incorporated cities, the county is as rural as areas 100 miles east or west with no municipal services.

In metro Atlanta, the cities compete with the county for municipal services. You will find the majority of the people in unincorporated areas of the major suburban counties (Cobb, Gwinnett, DeKalb and on down the list) get police, fire, water, sewer, schools, etc from the county. They see no reason to come into the governance of one of the cities. The main reason there has been a rush in the last decade was because of the areas in North Fulton wanting more local control because of mis-management in the Fulton government and a desire for more local control. This attitude did creep over into Dunwoody and now the proposed city of Ashford/Brookhaven.

So nutshell: Georgia counties in metro Atlanta might as well be considered cities.

Unfortunately true. Too bad Georgia doesn't run like Texas. It's like those people that moved out of the "corrupt" city of Atlanta and the corruption followed them to the suburbs. Perhaps to a somewhat lesser extent, but give it time.