2012 Atlanta Region Transportation Referendum (Alpharetta, Duluth: commuting, metro area, companies)

[Onthemove2014]

Originally Posted by neil0311

Taking a constant number of vehicles and increasing the number of lanes will reduce congestion (I never said traffic). That's just common sense. If you add additional vehicles to the mix, then of course that additional capacity will be taken up by the increased demand, but you can't just assume increased demand, especially if you do those other things as well.

When someone speaks of "traffic" in this regard "congestion" is what is meant. You can assume then because it has been done before, especially around here that the the congestion will just come back. I always does. There is no example where it hasn't exept in the situations where you go from a two lane street to a 3 or 4 because before people could not pass.

Since you seem don't seem to understand here are the studies to go along with the anedoctal and historical evidence.

http://bicycleuniverse.info/transpo/...-futility.html

HowStuffWorks "Traffic Solutions"

The Law of Traffic Congestion, according to "The Flash!" | Planetizen

Solving Traffic Congestion « Manage By Walking Around


Deb Henry - Does Widening Roads Cause Congestion? - YouTube


It just doesn't work. I has never worked. It is just a quick fix that doesn't solve the root of the issue once you reach a certain point (that point being where people get a passing and turning lane). Do you need more studies or does your expertise and gut still oppose what has been studied and watched over and over to fail even here?

[neil0311]

Originally Posted by Onthemove2014

When someone speaks of "traffic" in this regard "congestion" is what is meant.

My point being that 10 cars on a two lane road could mean congestion, while the same number of cars on a road with 10 lanes would not mean congestion.

Originally Posted by Onthemove2014

Since you seem don't seem to understand here are the studies to go along with the anedoctal and historical evidence.

I don't need to be a traffic engineer to understand that if you increase capacity with the same demand or lower demand that flow will be better.

[Onthemove2014]

Originally Posted by neil0311

My point being that 10 cars on a two lane road could mean congestion, while the same number of cars on a road with 10 lanes would not mean congestion.



I don't need to be a traffic engineer to understand that if you increase capacity with the same demand or lower demand that flow will be better.

This is unreal. If most Atlantans thinks like this ignoring all evidence and studies it's no wonder we keep widening roads hoping it drives down congestion but only making it worse.

Do you work for the DOT? You sound like it.

[thumpcbd]

Originally Posted by neil0311

Taking a constant number of vehicles and increasing the number of lanes will reduce congestion (I never said traffic). That's just common sense. If you add additional vehicles to the mix, then of course that additional capacity will be taken up by the increased demand, but you can't just assume increased demand, especially if you do those other things as well.

Doubling the number of lane miles also doubles the number of vehicle miles driven. AKA you make it easier for people to move further out and we do.

Originally Posted by neil0311

No one is talking about being our "own region" or anything of the sort. Personally, I think tolls aren't a bad idea, as long as we also charge MARTA users a fare that more accurately represents the cost to ride. If I compare the number of times I would pay a toll and how much that represents to the amount it will cost me at 1% of all purchases, I'll take the toll.

MARTA users are paying a sales tax to subsidize the system and there are sales taxes that go to subsidize roads too. Additionaly, road users pay gas taxes, which I think go towards MARTA too, but not in a significaint amount.

MARTA users however, do pay a toll each and every time the ride the rail, which can't be said for drivers outside of Ga 400.

[DJDeadParrot]

Originally Posted by neil0311

Taking a constant number of vehicles and increasing the number of lanes will reduce congestion (I never said traffic).

The assumption that the number of vehicles is constant and will never change, especially on a road where capacity is increased, is patently absurd. By your logic, we'd see the same number of vehicles on a road on which we decrease the number of lanes.

[neil0311]

Originally Posted by Onthemove2014

This is unreal. If most Atlantans thinks like this ignoring all evidence and studies it's no wonder we keep widening roads hoping it drives down congestion but only making it worse.

Do you work for the DOT? You sound like it.

You must have trouble reading or comprehending. Maybe you work for the federal gov't?

It defies logic and common sense to make a statement that if you keep the number of cars on a road constant, while increasing the amount of lanes, that you don't reduce congestion.

As I stated, if the number of cars increases, then of course the additional capacity will be taken up by the increased number of cars, but if you do the additional things that I mentioned, then you will not increase the number of vehicles.

I don't need a "study" to come to a common sense conclusion. Increase capacity without an increase in demand and you increase velocity.

Originally Posted by thumpcbd

Doubling the number of lane miles also doubles the number of vehicle miles driven. AKA you make it easier for people to move further out and we do.

You make an assumption. I merely stated that increasing capacity CAN decrease congestion, but I also stated that you would need to do some other things as well to realize that decrease.

[architect77]

Congestion isn't the problem. The problem is that 6 million people (8 million in 15 more years) cannot be accommodated on a freeway system that was designed for 2.5 million people 25 YEARS AGO!

It's so stupid to bring up "more roads means more congestion". Maybe they do, but triple the amount of people are able to get where they're going.

Those of you arguing this and using the word "sprawl" are hilarious. All states want their economies and GDPs and populations to grow. Nobody wants to move to Macon. Georgia's appeal is suburban living near a major city. (i.e. North Georgia!). Hello?

[Onthemove2014]

Originally Posted by architect77

Congestion isn't the problem. The problem is that 6 million people (8 million in 15 more years) cannot be accommodated on a freeway system that was designed for 2.5 million people 25 YEARS AGO!

It's so stupid to bring up "more roads means more congestion". Maybe they do, but triple the amount of people are able to get where they're going.

Those of you arguing this and using the word "sprawl" are hilarious. All states want their economies and GDPs and populations to grow. Nobody wants to move to Macon. Georgia's appeal is suburban living near a major city. (i.e. North Georgia!). Hello?

1. We don't have 6 million people.
2. Sprawl is why we have this issue in the first place.
3. States want and need smart growth.
4. Birmingham is appealing to a lot of folk because of the low traffic.

[BobKovacs]

Originally Posted by Onthemove2014

2. Sprawl is why we have this issue in the first place.

Without "sprawl", Atlanta, and most areas outside of the Northeast wouldn't exist. If people hadn't "sprawled" in the past, we'd all be living in tenements in Manhattan and the US population would be 1/10th of what it is today.

If there wasn't the dreaded "sprawl", even if Atlanta had come to exist, it wouldn't be a large economic engine, because it would have never seen the growth that it saw- not everyone wants to live in high-density housing, so if there weren't other options, there wouldn't be people to work at all the jobs that make Atlanta what it is.

We can sit around all day talking about Birmingham's low traffic- maybe that's because the entire Birmingham MSA has about 1.2 million people, which is just under Fulton County's population. Of course there's going to be less traffic, and if that's what's most important to you, move to Birmingham.

[DJDeadParrot]

Originally Posted by neil0311

As I stated, if the number of cars increases, then of course the additional capacity will be taken up by the increased number of cars, but if you do the additional things that I mentioned, then you will not increase the number of vehicles.

What exactly were those additional things, again? The Northern Arc?

In other words, your method to not increase the number of cars on an existing road is to build a completely new road?