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...and your work context is representative of everyplace in the state of Georgia, is it?
I certainly won't question your expertise in your local context, but your comments don't seem to correlate with the stats others have presented. Which to believe?
Really... I've known some former 15 year olds who might have surprise you when they were that age.
I'm not surprised such cases are rare, but that doesn't seem to explain some of the stats that others are citing here.
I never said it was representative, but certainly those of us who've actually worked the cases would have more knowledge and experience. I doubt that statutory rape prosecution in Georgia is vastly different from the same in much of the southeast. In fact, I know it is not. Most states have some variance, such as Georgia's singular lack of a R&J clause, but it's essentially the same. Prosecutors hesitancy in pursuing such cases is pretty much universal.
As for the maturity of fifteen year old girls, in my experience those most likely to use a fake ID are also the ones most likely to lack the maturity to pass for an adult. Again, that's in my experience withba lot of fifteen year old girls, some who were juvenile delinquents and even the ones who were professional sex workers still sounded like a girl.
And I also know that heavy enforcement of the statutory rape laws began roughly in the mid nineties as a anti-teen pregnancy measure as such a high percentage of teen pregnancies involve an adult male. The studies on statutory rape laws have only now begun, so it will be awhile before we have good data. The statistics thus far presented are skewed at best. I agree with the article in the Economist that indicates we have too many people on the registry. Those who were convicted before the changes in the law should be able to have their records expunged. However that's no excuse for people to assume that a statutory rape case is merely a teen indiscretion. The implications are far reaching, and again, I wouldn't hire someone on the offender registry.
You should know that todays modern electronic screening software programs prevent the hire of questionable people. Therefore these people must start their own businesses and work for themselves. I limit such hires to those jobs I can oversee should I need to replace them. Often they do good work and less than a large company would be able to provide. I am aware that I may be taking a risk.
How is it a stereotype when I'm simply relating information I've gathered from a decade and a half of casework? And I've heard that girl in a bar story more times than I can count and I call B.S. on it every time. You know why? Anyone who has ever had even the pithiest conversation with a 15 year old girl knows darned well she's underage. And again, such cases are rarely prosecuted, and certainly don't make up the bulk of the cases by any estimation.
And if you want to know about statutory rapists and the re offense rate the place to look is not an advocacy organization, but at filings for child support. After all, like all rape, statutory rape is seldom reported, let alone prosecuted. Usually the minor won't testify and most prosecutors won't risk their batting average on such a case. However, when there's a baby (or an aborted fetus, yeah we've subpoenaed one) DNA evidence can be used to prove sex occurred. Time and again you will find cases where several young girls have been impregnated by the same guy over a period of years.
Most states, including Georgia have a Romeo & Juliet proviso in regard to young teens having sex, including the oft referenced eighteen year old with a fifteen year old. It would bea misdemeanor, nd the eighteen year old would NOT be on the registry.
And here in Georgia uou also habe to take child prostitution into account. I only ran into it a few times in Alabama, and most of itbwas informal, but as I understand it the practice is rampant here in Georgia. Bottom line is, statutory rape is not a trivial matter. At the very least it can be considered a marker for poor boundary control.
Roslyn,
I'm reading your posts with great interests. I certainly think you have an interesting POV of things that others and mainly myself do not.
However, you appear to be wrong on at least a few points from all research people are pulling up. Everything I am pulling up shows a majority are not repeat offenders and pose little to no risk to anyone, but were caught in bad one time situations.
(With that said... this not to say that gives someone a pass for breaking the law and shouldn't be punished, but it is very relevant in deciding if someone can take on a functional job in society for families 9 years after the fact... keep that in mind. We aren't arguing for people to get a pass. We are examining the ability of people to be good people and move on.)
One thing that crossed my mind... perhaps it is your experience with all the casework you have done that is making you think of only the worst situations and problems or in a particular location, because that is what you are often confronted with? (people who actually felt abuse or people who picked up diseases or actually ran into a predator or rapist....had a shocking experience... Wouldn't they be more likely to seek out an abuse caseworker?)
Perhaps you don't see the situations where there is an older boyfriend (or sometimes girlfriend... one thing I liked about the Economists' article...just a gentle reminder... rarely, but sometimes the offender is a girl too) as much.
I know when I went to graduate school and focused my efforts on research in general I had to focus my efforts on getting an unbiased cross-section of the subject at hand. Part of me believes everything your saying. Just like the Economist article stated, they claimed 30% posed a potential threat, and 5% a serious threat. Part of me thinks it might be possible you are more likely to see those in your casework based from what you have said.
I can't really know how true that is or not... and perhaps you can or can't know either, but I thought I would throw that out there for consideration.
As far as your quick dismissal of what rcsteiner was saying about some 15 year old girls, I think it is unfair of you to dismiss that idea so readily. Your saying that isn't possible from your viewpoint and experience, but through his experience, as well as mine and many other guys I knew growing up that is by far not always the case.
If you grew up being a guy in your upper teenage years and even lower 20s trying to learn to approach and talk to a girls, then you might realize how often some of us end up in embarrassing situations where we ended up talking to someone 5 or 6 years younger than us or even 10 years older. This often happened more away from home or typical social settings, like school or church, more often in public at large (movies, mall, etc..), or especially on vacation at the beach. I had my fair share of that actually, so I think that is why myself and many other guys get defensive on this subject. When I was younger I did misjudge the age of many girls both up and down (actually I still do, but I'm more than sufficiently old enough now I don't need to worry about the legal age by a long shot), but if you mix that with alcohol, situations where the girl is lying, and situations where no one 18 is suppose to be present... I see where some people could fall into that trap in the past.
Now, for both better and worse, I grew up a bit of a religious straight edge. I didn't need to worry about those moments so much, but alot of people in their teens and early 20s are very care free and make many mistakes in many situations. They are by nature...very impulsive. I can see how those situations happen if someone is living life much more loosely and care free.
One silly note too... I know this isn't just happening to guys. When I was younger and went on family vacation to the beach every year my own mother would sometimes lean over and spot girls out to me she thought was my age... only for me to respond oh yea that girl's sister I met... shes 14! or older too... mom, shes about to graduate college! (when I was say 18) However, she never faced actually having to approach girls in general and run into those embarrassing moments. She wouldn't have ever noticed the difference if I didn't tell her.
Now among all the guys I met at the beach (and it was the Redneck Riviera, Gulf Shores, AL) one common joke alot of the other guys use to throw around was be sure to ID the girls. It was a running joke for years, because so many did -in fact- lie about their ages -very- frequently. Sometimes it was believable and sometimes it wasn't, but one thing is the guys commonly discussed amongst themselves, which is how they often caught some of the lies. The girls didn't necessarily lie uniformly. In fact, it was usually to the few guys that might happened to meet their eye and seemed older.
Anyways, even with saying that there is a myriad of good arguments to be made here and teach guys... don't sleep with a girl you don't know very well, don't take chances, get to know someone better and you will catch the lies, and for the most part these beach experiences I had no one would have trouble with statutory rape, because most people weren't actually getting sexually involved that quickly to begin with.
However, they were socializing, they were lying, and I think why many guys make these arguments and perhaps it is a bit unfair to dismiss them so quickly. If nothing else it is unfair to tell people the story is BS, because growing up as a guy... I saw the scenario play out so many times... even though it didn't even lead to sex.
To the OP...
I really don't know how much any of this discussion can really be helping anymore. I think you just have to have that one-time uncomfortable talk with him.
Many people have had past problems in many ways, even beyond sexual offenses. Most move past it and get on with their lives at some point. It is the point of rehabilitation. I think what scares me is we are creating the mentality where people who have and are willing to move past problems/issues are having a harder time finding honest work, especially 9 years after, but that is of course no reason to hire someone that may be a threat to your family or make your uncomfortable. I think you just have to investigate and use your instincts.
For me personally, I can't say we really interact with our lawn guy all that much anyways. If it was a plumber and not a lawn care guy... I really wouldn't worry that much. That is easy to supervise and is usually for a one time project... as needed to fix something.
I don't really know the details, but we have to remember when looking at the registry... alot of people are on there for past crimes when the law was different.
Just something else to add to the mix.
The age of consent (16) I believe was instituted in the 1930's, before that it was 14, before that, at the turn of the last century, 12. If our current laws had been in place over a century ago, we'd be looking at photo's of our grandfathers and great-grandfathers much differently, as sex offenders.
By not giving these sex offenders a chance, taking the risk, what alternatives do they have then? Robbery, Muggings, Home Invasions, Panhandling, comitting a crime so they'll at least have a roof over their heads (prison) and 3 meals a day? And you can always deliberately injure yourself and go on Medicaid for the rest of your life, all at taxpayer's expense!
Let's see...
the guy is now around 26 or 27...
nine years ago he was around 17 or 18...
he probably had a 15 year old girlfriend...
whose parents couldn't stand the guy...
comment removed - what you are referring to has been deleted.
It would be really nice if these "sex offender" laws were based on common sense rather than hysteria.
Thats the huge problem i have with these laws....there too broad and too many innocent people are on the list. Statutory Rape or sex as they call it in Europe isn't a crime in most European countries. To get on there list you have to rape someone or molest a child , that's how it should be here in the US. An 18 year old should be allowed to have sex with a 15 year old ,after all there in High School....these laws seem to ignore the fact that hormones are raging between ages 14 to 25...and brains are still learning.... In NJ the laws are very relaxed , theres a 4 year flex consent....so if your above 14 you can consent with an 18 year old....etc. No one under the age of 21 should be placed on the Registry. Of course this is just my person opinion....why isn't there a gang Registry or drug use Registry? Sadly there will never be any changes to these out of touch laws , just like the drinking age or the fact that pot is still illegal....its sad but true. This country is to concerned with pleasing a few advocacy groups which damages the majority. Alot of these laws are rushed , there also laws on top of laws when it comes to the age of consent... Why can't it be more stream lined like Europe or Canada?
@Nexis, again an 18 year old can have sex with a fifteen year old. There is a Romeo and Juliet clause. Though I don't yhink it should happen, the power imbalance is too great, three years in high school is huge, but that's a parental decision. And yes, you're right these laws don't exist in Europe primarily because they don't have the teen pregnancy rate we have here. When you have a situation where 40% of teen pregnancies involve an adult male it seems reasonable tongo after those men. Teen pregnancy is very expensive to society as a whole. And you have to consider that teen pregnancy rates have fallen substantially since tougher enforcement began. We all know that correlation is not causation, and we don't have good data yet, but the difference is significant. As for no one under 21 should be on the registry, I think that type of absolute is dangerous. Whatvabout the 19year old with a string of 13 and 14 year old girlfriends?
@cwkimbro, as I said before statistics from a sexual offender advocacy site where we don't even know who the owners are is suspect at best. There are lots of thosevsites out there disseminating specious data and as much as they decry the emotionalism behind sex offender statutes, they too appeal tomemotionalism by citing rare outlier cases. Recidivism rates are based on someone being charged with another crime. As I've said repeatedly most cases of statutory rape are not reported, let alone charged. This is why the child support information is far more reliable. Crime statistics are notoriously unreliable when it comes to sex crimes, to the point that I wish they weren't available to laypeople because without careful interpretation it's easy to be misled. Again very little of it is reported. In fact, usually only the most egregious cases involving a large age difference, pregnancy or child prostitution make it to court. A lot of cases are plead down to misdemeanors, this doesn't make the crime statistics either.
As for the scenario with the fifteen year old, yes I'm well aware that young men discover that they're talking to someone significantly younger than they thought. I spent a lot of time working in bars and restaurants in my youth. The operative phrase here is they discovered. As in, long before anyone took their clothes off. If you routinely get so intoxicated that you're having sex with people you don't even bother to talk to, you probably shouldn't be let out without a keeper. And again, these cases are exceedingly rare, unless they result in a pregnancy they're unlikely to be reported or prosecuted. And yes, it is incumbent upon young men to be more careful, a fact that should be reinforced to them. I have no idea what happened, but I can remember my dad telling my brothers repeatedly "fifteen will get you twenty," yet now young people act as though they've never heard of statutory rape.
And yes, there are plenty of women on the registry as well. I had a couple if cases, but they were pretty egregious--women in their thirties involved with very young teen boys. People are also quik to dismiss the impact such a relationship can have on boys and this makes me furious.
I am sure we can all agree our sex and domestic laws in ths country are very skewed in the favor of women/females. I guess it is our societies balancing act of paying women lower wages.
The more you look at our justice system, the more you realize that this country is not a "free" as it says it is. Granted, we are much better than most other nations, but our civil liberties are being curtailed.
Last warning - the topic which needs to be addressed, is whether you'd hire someone who is a registered sex offender or not. You can discuss your pro or con depending on what type of offense they're convicted of, however, if we continue to stray too far off topic into "general law" and not even relate to the topic, the thread will be closed.
@Nexis, again an 18 year old can have sex with a fifteen year old. There is a Romeo and Juliet clause. Though I don't yhink it should happen, the power imbalance is too great, three years in high school is huge, but that's a parental decision. And yes, you're right these laws don't exist in Europe primarily because they don't have the teen pregnancy rate we have here. When you have a situation where 40% of teen pregnancies involve an adult male it seems reasonable tongo after those men. Teen pregnancy is very expensive to society as a whole. And you have to consider that teen pregnancy rates have fallen substantially since tougher enforcement began. We all know that correlation is not causation, and we don't have good data yet, but the difference is significant. As for no one under 21 should be on the registry, I think that type of absolute is dangerous. Whatvabout the 19year old with a string of 13 and 14 year old girlfriends?
@cwkimbro, as I said before statistics from a sexual offender advocacy site where we don't even know who the owners are is suspect at best. There are lots of thosevsites out there disseminating specious data and as much as they decry the emotionalism behind sex offender statutes, they too appeal tomemotionalism by citing rare outlier cases. Recidivism rates are based on someone being charged with another crime. As I've said repeatedly most cases of statutory rape are not reported, let alone charged. This is why the child support information is far more reliable. Crime statistics are notoriously unreliable when it comes to sex crimes, to the point that I wish they weren't available to laypeople because without careful interpretation it's easy to be misled. Again very little of it is reported. In fact, usually only the most egregious cases involving a large age difference, pregnancy or child prostitution make it to court. A lot of cases are plead down to misdemeanors, this doesn't make the crime statistics either.
As for the scenario with the fifteen year old, yes I'm well aware that young men discover that they're talking to someone significantly younger than they thought. I spent a lot of time working in bars and restaurants in my youth. The operative phrase here is they discovered. As in, long before anyone took their clothes off. If you routinely get so intoxicated that you're having sex with people you don't even bother to talk to, you probably shouldn't be let out without a keeper. And again, these cases are exceedingly rare, unless they result in a pregnancy they're unlikely to be reported or prosecuted. And yes, it is incumbent upon young men to be more careful, a fact that should be reinforced to them. I have no idea what happened, but I can remember my dad telling my brothers repeatedly "fifteen will get you twenty," yet now young people act as though they've never heard of statutory rape.
And yes, there are plenty of women on the registry as well. I had a couple if cases, but they were pretty egregious--women in their thirties involved with very young teen boys. People are also quik to dismiss the impact such a relationship can have on boys and this makes me furious.
but all of these statistics aren't coming just from a misc. unheard of advocacy group... They are also coming from various states' making recommendations for making laws, as is the case in Georgia and pointed out in the Economists' article.
"If you routinely get so intoxicated that you're having sex with people you don't even bother to talk to, you probably shouldn't be let out without a keeper."
I'm not largely in disagreement you at all, however normal people do get into these situations and someone doesn't have to do it routinely to get caught in that situation either. It also isn't just guys. It is just as frequently girls, but typically girls like older guys and guys like younger girls.
So when we are looking at registry laws, or talking about whether to hire someone or not 9 years after, and you look at the registry and see many guys were in their late teens/younger twenties I believe we have to take this into account. I don't believe the whole list is as dangerous as you make it sound, but I don't doubt that there are people on it who are.
The last thing I want to spot out... you make it sound as it is extremely rare people are actually charged with these crimes. This is one of the many things I just don't see happening.
about 1 out of ever 300 Georgia men are on the actual registry, and then there are these arguments without any statistics, that a majority don't get prosecuted, and even when they do they are bumped down to misdemeanors (which I think Georgia law actually confines to certain situations only... largely with in 4 years of age) and aren't on the registry.
To have 1 in 300 on the list it seems to me we are getting on them on the registry rather easily... not the other way around, but I'm more than willing to examine any actual research.
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