Transportation Tax - Opposition (Atlanta, Sandy Springs: chapel, universities, light rail)

[Lady's Man]

Originally Posted by BobKovacs

Why does one automatically "hate transit" just because they don't support this particular initiative? I used public transit all the time when I lived in NJ and worked in NYC because it was convenient and made sense. The system we have in place will not be improved dramatically enough relative to the investment proposed in the TIA, IMO, so I'm not likely to support it. That doesn't mean that I "hate transit" by any stretch.

so then we should propose a 20% sales tax increase so that we can make ATL the perfect public transit utopia? the point i'm making of course is that Rome was not built in a day. You have to start somewhere. Like it or not, public transit is a good investment. Oil wont be around forever, gas prices will go up, the air will get dirtier, younger generations will prefer the urban lifestyle, drivers will become more annoyed with traffic, etc.

[gtcorndog]

Originally Posted by toll_booth

http://www.apta.com/resources/statis...rship-APTA.pdf

Yeah, it's closer to 470,000. He was off by 6%. Oh noes. *rolleyes*

Seriously, corndog, what you're doing is not helping get your points across.

Again, that is the number of unlinked trips per day. Look up that definition and then tell me if you stand by the ignorance in your post above.

EDIT: Better yet, I'll do the research for you. Here is what you need to understand son.

All transit ridership data relate to trips taken-not to people-because that is how data are collected and reported. The heavy use of passes, transfers, joint tickets, and cash by people transferring from one vehicle, service, or public transportation agency to another makes it impossible to count people. Only boardings (i.e., unlinked passenger trips) can be counted with any accuracy. At the largest public transportation agencies, even the number of boardings may be estimated for a portion of the ridership (e.g., free shuttle vehicles without fareboxes and light-rail service using a "proof-of-payment" system).

The majority of people using public transportation take two trips per day (one to work in the morning and one home in late afternoon or evening). A small proportion-perhaps 5 percent-make only one public transportation trip (e.g., they ride public transportation to the airport and then fly out of town, or they ride public transportation in the morning to work, but ride home in a friend's automobile at night). A somewhat larger proportion (primarily the public transportation-dependent) take 4, 6, 8, or even 10 trips per day.

At most agencies, perhaps 10 to 30 percent of riders must transfer to a second (and sometimes a third) vehicle to reach their final destination. Some transfer from bus to bus, from bus to train, from one agency's vehicle to another agency's vehicle, and so on. Thus, there is a large amount of double-counting of people. APTA's best estimate is that the number of people using public transportation on any day is about 45 percent of the number of trips reported.

Saturday ridership is often about 50 percent of weekday ridership, and Sunday ridership may be only 25 percent. In many smaller cities, public transportation service does not operate on Sundays; in a lesser number, there is no Saturday service.

[neil0311]

Originally Posted by BobKovacs

Why does one automatically "hate transit" just because they don't support this particular initiative? I used public transit all the time when I lived in NJ and worked in NYC because it was convenient and made sense. The system we have in place will not be improved dramatically enough relative to the investment proposed in the TIA, IMO, so I'm not likely to support it. That doesn't mean that I "hate transit" by any stretch.

What he said (replace NJ with Queens and work with school).

[gtcorndog]

Originally Posted by toll_booth

Why do you hate transit?

I don't hate transit, I'm just opposed to this particular measure because the transit portion it doesn't really address any regional needs. Over $3 billion will be spent and nothing of significant value is added to the transit system.

[shivtim]

Originally Posted by neil0311

Interesting to note that 90% of the population lives outside the city limits, and many of the corporate HQs and offices are likewise outside the city limits in those places you mention.

The net flow of people going to work is still heavily biased to Fulton County. Yes, there are certainly a large amount of people who, for example, live in Cobb and work in Cobb. But there is a net influx of 296,000 workers daily into Fulton County (Clayton is a distant second, attracting a net 33,000 workers daily, largely because of the airport). The single largest employment center in the region is downtown Atlanta (more than 110,000 jobs), and this number is projected to grow to nearly 170,000 by the year 2040. For comparison, Cumberland has less than 30,000 jobs.

To quote ARC: "Fulton County has an estimated daytime population of almost 1.2 million, which is 32 percent larger than its resident population and the largest positive difference in the region."

My point being, the data shows there are a huge number of people traveling "inward" each day. For all those who think downtown Atlanta isn't the most important job center, you're wrong. That's why MARTA and the highways spoke outward from downtown. It makes perfect sense to continue to focus our transportation infrastructure improvements on getting people into Fulton, and especially downtown.


Sources:
http://documents.atlantaregional.com...dC2_072711.pdf
http://www.atlantaregional.com/File%...12_Workers.pdf

[shivtim]

Originally Posted by gtcorndog

I don't hate transit, I'm just opposed to this particular measure because the transit portion it doesn't really address any regional needs. Over $3 billion will be spent and nothing of significant value is added to the transit system.

You don't think the Clifton line addresses regional needs? There are more than 79,000 jobs and 61,000 housing units within a 3 mile circle from the center of Emory University. There is no highway access to this area, and at rush hour the surface streets get backed-up for miles in any direction. Due to the high degree of existing development, it's not feasible to build a highway to this area or add lanes to existing streets. Transit really is the only option for improving access to this regional job center.

What about the addition of 9 miles of light rail in downtown/midtown Atlanta? A big issue is the "last mile" problem, where people won't take MARTA because it doesn't go close enough to their destination. Won't the web of new rail help to solve this problem in downtown and midtown, two of the largest employment and residential centers in the entire region?

What about the transit for I-20, which will serve a population which is the most likely to actually use transit? What about the I-75 transit, which will finally connect Cobb County?

[arjay57]

Originally Posted by shivtim

The net flow of people going to work is still heavily biased to Fulton County. Yes, there are certainly a large amount of people who, for example, live in Cobb and work in Cobb. But there is a net influx of 296,000 workers daily into Fulton County (Clayton is a distant second, attracting a net 33,000 workers daily, largely because of the airport). The single largest employment center in the region is downtown Atlanta (more than 110,000 jobs), and this number is projected to grow to nearly 170,000 by the year 2040. For comparison, Cumberland has less than 30,000 jobs.

To quote ARC: "Fulton County has an estimated daytime population of almost 1.2 million, which is 32 percent larger than its resident population and the largest positive difference in the region."

My point being, the data shows there are a huge number of people traveling "inward" each day. For all those who think downtown Atlanta isn't the most important job center, you're wrong. That's why MARTA and the highways spoke outward from downtown. It makes perfect sense to continue to focus our transportation infrastructure improvements on getting people into Fulton, and especially downtown.


Sources:
http://documents.atlantaregional.com...dC2_072711.pdf
http://www.atlantaregional.com/File%...12_Workers.pdf

shivtim, are you sure these numbers are right? For instance, in the second source you cite, Fulton is said to have a total of 640,177 jobs. (Table 1).

However, if you look at Table 2, the employment in Buckhead, downtown, Midtown and Hartsfield adds up to 619,500. That means all the rest of Fulton County has less than 30,000 jobs.

I'm also not sure where they come up with conclusion that Cumberland has less than 30,000 jobs.


Unless I'm totally misreading this, those numbers don't seem to square with ARC's recap of employment by superdistricts. Please take a look at this and let me know what you think.

http://www.atlantaregional.com/File%...-Forecasts.xls

[toll_booth]

Originally Posted by BobKovacs

Those stats are for "unlinked trips"- not daily commuters. See my comments above regarding this. If one person takes the train and a bus to get to work and does the same thing on the way home, that counts as four unlinked trips. There are not 470,000 people using MARTA per day.

Huh. Well, it's a quarter million trips by rail, and slightly fewer by bus. But if unlinked trips mean someone going bus-and-rail in one shot, why is the total greater than the sum of the parts? Me no get that math...

Originally Posted by BobKovacs

Why does one automatically "hate transit" just because they don't support this particular initiative? I used public transit all the time when I lived in NJ and worked in NYC because it was convenient and made sense. The system we have in place will not be improved dramatically enough relative to the investment proposed in the TIA, IMO, so I'm not likely to support it. That doesn't mean that I "hate transit" by any stretch.

That may be, but this day and age, legitimate concern and blind disdain are becoming harder and harder to distinguish. Even if the legitimate concerns are the costs, a point that I have tried to make time and again is externalities. Driving costs far more than just fuel. You have maintenance, which costs a lot. And then there's the human toll cost, such as stress and accidents, and air pollution. The monetary costs for all that may be hard to pin down, but that doesn't mean they're not there.

You want to know what would make me come out in all-out opposition to an outward expansion of transit? A real, smart growth plan that the whole region gets on board to clamp down HARD on sprawl. The case could be made that suburb-to-city-core transit enables sprawl, and on that one point, the anti-transit activists would be right.

But this whole "I'm not gonna use it, therefore I'm opposed to any of my tax dollars paying for it" tripe is as selfish as it gets. Come on, people. We don't live on an island.

[toll_booth]

Originally Posted by gtcorndog

Again, that is the number of unlinked trips per day. Look up that definition and then tell me if you stand by the ignorance in your post above.

EDIT: Better yet, I'll do the research for you. Here is what you need to understand son.

I am man enough to admit when I am wrong. Are you?

More importantly, will you stop this childish trolling and actually engage in a civil debate?

[gtcorndog]

Originally Posted by toll_booth

I am man enough to admit when I am wrong. Are you?

More importantly, will you stop this childish trolling and actually engage in a civil debate?

Where am I wrong?