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I like the idea in general but I think some of the distances are a waste and you could get it started quicker to shorten the endpoints some. There is no way it should go past Peachtree City, Villa Rica, or Covington and I would somewhat question going past Woodstock and Buford as well. The only reasons the Macon and Athens lines wouldn't be too long is because they go all the way to those 2 larger cities.
I believe that quote was in 2006 numbers. I would expect that number to be closer to $2.5-3 billion now.
Even at that price it's still reasonable.
Time to just get moving. All systems tend to be modified once you get underway with implementation, but if we sit around jaw-boning for another 20 years absolutely zip is going to get done.
At some point talk has to cease, and action begins. That's one of the biggest problems with this country these days. People want to ***, ***, *** when they ought to be turning dirt.
Let's go boys! Git 'er done and we can have a drink and talk about it later.
One nice thing about commuter rail is that is can be built in phases and extended later if needed. Starting with closer end cities on some lines, as you suggest, would make it even quicker and cheaper to get the plan started.
GDOT's plan in 2006 was to start with the southeast line, but initially run trains only to Lovejoy. Then they would eventually extend that line to Macon.
Quote:
Originally Posted by westau
I like the idea in general but I think some of the distances are a waste and you could get it started quicker to shorten the endpoints some. There is no way it should go past Peachtree City, Villa Rica, or Covington and I would somewhat question going past Woodstock and Buford as well. The only reasons the Macon and Athens lines wouldn't be too long is because they go all the way to those 2 larger cities.
Flexibility is one of the greatest benefits of commuter rail. It is easy to add capacity, change schedules, change routes with this type of transit.
What makes this perfect for Atlanta is that it doesn't require as massive of an initial investment, per mile, as other types of rail. Every line will likely start off single tracked and run during rush hours only. If a line proves to be popular, sidings (short segments of double track) can be added to allow for two way traffic. If even more capacity is need, double track the entire route. Over the years, I'm sure a few lines will likely end up being double tracked and have all day service.
But for now, we can improve existing rails and use them. We don't have to go balls deep with exclusive right of ways and massive stations. It will grow with demand. That's appealing to Georgia voters.
The ability to fix our current transit problems and solve future ones makes this the most valuable transportation option for metro Atlanta.
I like the idea in general but I think some of the distances are a waste and you could get it started quicker to shorten the endpoints some. There is no way it should go past Peachtree City, Villa Rica, or Covington and I would somewhat question going past Woodstock and Buford as well. The only reasons the Macon and Athens lines wouldn't be too long is because they go all the way to those 2 larger cities.
Well a few points to ponder...
Commuter rail is often cheap to run much longer distances once you already do it over the main part of the route. The real issue is the time it takes to avoid using the tracks for freight.
They will also have to build a small rail yard (need undeveloped land) at the outer terminus. This is where the trains will be stored over night, so they don't take any more time on the tracks to reposition. It is often far more affordable to have these way out anyways.
The other thing I would consider is two-fold. Keep in mind half the reason we do transportation items, is so Atlanta is a better place to do business. The idea is we lure more people and more jobs, then we will be able to make money ourselves -and- have higher property values. (take away the housing bubble effects before the recession those of us who come from a long-line of Atlantans have to admit most of our homes have skyrocketed in value as our city has grown. Many suburbs that use to be out in the sticks are now desirable "inner" OTP suburbs.)
Commuter rail can help fill a few niches roads can't. You often will have some people who honestly want to live way out in a rural area, own a large estate, have horses, etc... They are top executives and they have the money to make it worthwhile, but roads aren't an option. They need something that will be relatively traffic free.
Now I wouldn't make a commuter line just for them, but I would keep them on my mind in a decision to extend a few extra stops out of town. They are often the type of people who decide where a business locates. We want to pitch the idea to top execs... you'll -want- to live here. The other thing is fares on a commuter rail line at the fringes of town will be like $5-$10 (and sometimes higher) one way, so there is a little bit of money to be made from the slight extra cost of going a few more miles in the rural landscape. Most of the expense to using a fright track is bringing up rail crossings to certain standards or delaying freight movements, which most rural stops can avoid if you do suburban routes anyways.
That aside... I would underplay the economic might of Gainesville (yes I'm expecting a few jokes to pop-up), but they are almost the same size of Athens, not much further away, and have a $6.2 billion/year economy (Athens has a $6.1 billion/year economy; warner robins has a $5 billion/year; Macon has a $7.0 billion/year economy for comparison). They aren't too much further past Buford and there is Flowery Branch an emerging suburb along the way.
For the Woodstock line... I would definitely terminate in Canton. Its smaller, but a sizable town... and by the time we actually get anything built... the suburbs will go at least one small town past woodstock anyways. and Kennesaw will be booming, because that is all those people will be able to drive to.
Oh and one last thing... A route might run 6 trains in and 6 trains out, but only about 2 or 3 will reach the further terminous. The others will terminate earlier.
Commuter rail is often cheap to run much longer distances once you already do it over the main part of the route. The real issue is the time it takes to avoid using the tracks for freight.
They will also have to build a small rail yard (need undeveloped land) at the outer terminus. This is where the trains will be stored over night, so they don't take any more time on the tracks to reposition. It is often far more affordable to have these way out anyways.
The other thing I would consider is two-fold. Keep in mind half the reason we do transportation items, is so Atlanta is a better place to do business. The idea is we lure more people and more jobs, then we will be able to make money ourselves -and- have higher property values. (take away the housing bubble effects before the recession those of us who come from a long-line of Atlantans have to admit most of our homes have skyrocketed in value as our city has grown. Many suburbs that use to be out in the sticks are now desirable "inner" OTP suburbs.)
Commuter rail can help fill a few niches roads can't. You often will have some people who honestly want to live way out in a rural area, own a large estate, have horses, etc... They are top executives and they have the money to make it worthwhile, but roads aren't an option. They need something that will be relatively traffic free.
Now I wouldn't make a commuter line just for them, but I would keep them on my mind in a decision to extend a few extra stops out of town. They are often the type of people who decide where a business locates. We want to pitch the idea to top execs... you'll -want- to live here. The other thing is fares on a commuter rail line at the fringes of town will be like $5-$10 (and sometimes higher) one way, so there is a little bit of money to be made from the slight extra cost of going a few more miles in the rural landscape. Most of the expense to using a fright track is bringing up rail crossings to certain standards or delaying freight movements, which most rural stops can avoid if you do suburban routes anyways.
That aside... I would underplay the economic might of Gainesville (yes I'm expecting a few jokes to pop-up), but they are almost the same size of Athens, not much further away, and have a $6.2 billion/year economy (Athens has a $6.1 billion/year economy; warner robins has a $5 billion/year; Macon has a $7.0 billion/year economy for comparison). They aren't too much further past Buford and there is Flowery Branch an emerging suburb along the way.
For the Woodstock line... I would definitely terminate in Canton. Its smaller, but a sizable town... and by the time we actually get anything built... the suburbs will go at least one small town past woodstock anyways. and Kennesaw will be booming, because that is all those people will be able to drive to.
Oh and one last thing... A route might run 6 trains in and 6 trains out, but only about 2 or 3 will reach the further terminous. The others will terminate earlier.
All good points here. I think they should build in little phases at a time. I don't know too much about Gainsville, other than there is an Amtrak stop there. Isn't it close to Lake Lanier Islands? There or somewhere closer would provide for easy access to the resort. The proposed train to Athens has been referred to as the "Brain Train" since it connects major universities, and that would be something conveniant for the students to use. The Woodstock or Canton line should also be priority, as Cumberland, Dobbins AFB, Marietta, and Kennesaw can be served, as well as providing access to Lake Alatoona. There are tracks that run right through downtown Marietta by the square, and that is a perfect location for a station.
Another good idea is having local and express trains, in which the latter only stops at the major stations, while the local stops at every station.
I think these commuter trains should be privatized from the get-go, and work out a deal with CSX or Norfolk Southern to share the tracks.
Last edited by SEAandATL; 08-10-2012 at 12:29 AM..
Reason: More to add
All good points here. I think they should build in little phases at a time. I don't know too much about Gainsville, other than there is an Amtrak stop there. Isn't it close to Lake Lanier Islands? There or somewhere closer would provide for easy access to the resort. The proposed train to Athens has been referred to as the "Brain Train" since it connects major universities, and that would be something conveniant for the students to use. The Woodstock or Canton line should also be priority, as Cumberland, Dobbins AFB, Marietta, and Kennesaw can be served, as well as providing access to Lake Alatoona. There are tracks that run right through downtown Marietta by the square, and that is a perfect location for a station.
Another good idea is having local and express trains, in which the latter only stops at the major stations, while the local stops at every station.
I think these commuter trains should be privatized from the get-go, and work out a deal with CSX or Norfolk Southern to share the tracks.
Great ideas. They could do like they do with high-rise elevators: One train only services the outer stops, and the next services only the inner stops. Or all trains service the inner stops, and every other/every third/whatever train services all of them. We got engineers, we can figure that part out pretty easily.
I say let's go one line at a time. The Lovejoy line came awfully close to fruition, but our former governor really twiddled his thumbs on it. Let's hope that Deal can get the job rolling. And yeah, the Brain Train should be high priority. Hell, one railroad spur comes within walking distance of Sanford Stadium! Imagine people leaving on a Saturday morning to see a matinee Dawgs game, not having to fight parking or gameday traffic, and coming home that evening! Man. I could get behind that. And I'm sure the students, as well as several commuters, would love to be able to use that route during the week.
All good points here. I think they should build in little phases at a time. I don't know too much about Gainsville, other than there is an Amtrak stop there. Isn't it close to Lake Lanier Islands? There or somewhere closer would provide for easy access to the resort. The proposed train to Athens has been referred to as the "Brain Train" since it connects major universities, and that would be something conveniant for the students to use. The Woodstock or Canton line should also be priority, as Cumberland, Dobbins AFB, Marietta, and Kennesaw can be served, as well as providing access to Lake Alatoona. There are tracks that run right through downtown Marietta by the square, and that is a perfect location for a station.
Another good idea is having local and express trains, in which the latter only stops at the major stations, while the local stops at every station.
I think these commuter trains should be privatized from the get-go, and work out a deal with CSX or Norfolk Southern to share the tracks.
Lake Lanier Island is actually really close to Buford... almost half way between Flowery Branch and Buford.
Great ideas. They could do like they do with high-rise elevators: One train only services the outer stops, and the next services only the inner stops. Or all trains service the inner stops, and every other/every third/whatever train services all of them. We got engineers, we can figure that part out pretty easily.
I say let's go one line at a time. The Lovejoy line came awfully close to fruition, but our former governor really twiddled his thumbs on it. Let's hope that Deal can get the job rolling. And yeah, the Brain Train should be high priority. Hell, one railroad spur comes within walking distance of Sanford Stadium! Imagine people leaving on a Saturday morning to see a matinee Dawgs game, not having to fight parking or gameday traffic, and coming home that evening! Man. I could get behind that. And I'm sure the students, as well as several commuters, would love to be able to use that route during the week.
Here is the article from 2008 that states that Purdue wanted the Lovejoy Line "pursued aggressively":
Hopefully it still is pursued, as four years have passed and I haven't heard anything new. Hopefully they weren't just sitting with their fingers crossed hoping for the T-SPLOST to pass.
Here is the Wiki article that lists all the proposed lines, including the Lovejoy Line and references the above article, as well as The Brain Train and the Canton Line.
Time to just get moving. All systems tend to be modified once you get underway with implementation, but if we sit around jaw-boning for another 20 years absolutely zip is going to get done.
At some point talk has to cease, and action begins. That's one of the biggest problems with this country these days. People want to ***, ***, *** when they ought to be turning dirt.
Let's go boys! Git 'er done and we can have a drink and talk about it later.
All the better to send money to the consulting firms!
MARTA in recent years, even before the TSPLOST, has done studies on extending the north line to Alpharetta, extending the east line to East Dekalb, studying I-20 east rail or bus, Clifton Corridor and extending the west line out to MLK. The Lovejoy commuter rail has been studied. The TSPLOST was going to allocate, as I recall, $100 million to study a Gwinnet line and a similar amount to study the north line.
If you spread a little money around to everyone, you can be sure nothing gets done.
The 3 biggest red flags to me about the whole TSPLOST selection process were:
1) The Turner Field MARTA proposal. With all these studies, that just came out of the blue.
2) Rail (later switched at the last minute back to bus) on the East Dekalb line. The locally preferred alternative was a bus lane and that was back when East and South Dekalb were still growing, not foreclosure central.
3) Turning the beltline project from a circular route to one connecting downtown at the last minute when all the studies had been about the circular route.
It was just a backward process where they figured out how to get money and then all dipped their hands in for their pet projects instead of a long range process where they used past studies.
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