Georgia state income tax (low income, insurance, school)

[btard]

Originally Posted by ATLTJL

Almost everything is cheaper in Florida, from income tax to sales tax to car tags.

Ever bought groceries there? Gas? Paid a utility bill?

You'll quickly find that FL is not cheaper.

[cittic10]

(((

Originally Posted by GeorgiaLakeSearch

I guess you think the wealthy have a duty to subsidize other peoples lifestyles. We need more sales and property taxes with they way the federal government is going with about 50% of taxpayers paying no federal income tax.

)))

No, that's not what I said.
"People's lifestyles," as you put it has nothing to do with it. If you're talking about welfare, then by your standards, poor working people are also paying for welfare recipients. Under a "flat tax" sales tax system, the poor would be paying a greater percentage of their income to pay for welfare programs than the wealthy since poor people normally spend more of their income than wealthy people.

((((((

Originally Posted by GeorgiaLakeSearch

A sales tax is more fair then income tax because it hits everybody.

)))
It would only be fair if everyone made the same amount of money. I'd be all for that, personally. I'm in favor of salary caps and high minimum wages but something tells me you aren't.
In reality, people make wide range of incomes. Those who make less money end up paying a greater percentage of their earnings (you know, the money they EARNED sweeping floors or teaching kids or being fire fighters or paramedics) than do people who make more money.

Even though sales tax is easy to understand because it's the same number for all who pay it, that doesn't make it fair. What makes it unfair is a little more complicated. There's plenty of studies done on the subject that I could recommend if you're interested.


((( (((

Originally Posted by GeorgiaLakeSearch

It is much harder to evade a sales tax vs. income. It is hits illegal aliens who do not pay income tax.

)))

First of all, the illegal aliens were kicked out of the state. So problem solved, right?
Second of all, most of the undocumented workers (at least the spanish speaking ones that seem bother people so much) shipped nearly all of their earnings back home. They didn't go to Nieman Marcus to spend it.

But most importantly, sales tax is extremely easy to legally avoid paying nowadays by simply ordering online. Something I do on a regular basis for that very reason.

((((((

Originally Posted by GeorgiaLakeSearch

I guess you will have a liberal story about the single mom who has to buy food for three children, etc. Well if you cannot afford children do not have them it is not that hard to NOT get pregnant.

)))

I couldn't agree with you more on that. If you can't feed 'em, don't breed 'em.
Apparently, I am told that my view is extremely chauvinistic and that I have no right to tell women what to do with their bodies. And most of the religious zealots in our area have me believing that it's a sin to use contraceptives and that having large families with lots and lots of children is what you're supposed to do in life. Either way, what does this have to do with sales tax again?
It sounds like you are confusing welfare recipients with all lower income people.

Once again, all income earners pay into the welfare pot according to ability to pay but absolutely NONE of them receive welfare themselves because they are ineligible due to making too much income. That doesn't make a sales tax any more fair because all income earners from the $35k a year cop to the $15 mil a year hedge fund manager contribute, only the cop and the teacher pay a disproportionately higher amount than the hedge fund manager. That is not fair.

The point of welfare is to be temporary relief for people who are down on their luck. Yes others have to pay into that. The sooner people can get out of trouble the better. They can't fund it themselves.

Just out of curiousity, is it OK that I criticize your "lifestyles" because you get tax credits for having dependents and I don't? Something tells me you're taking advantage of those and not voluntarily paying more tax than you have to. Because if you are, I sure am tired of spending my hard earned money paying for your lifestyle.

(((

Originally Posted by GeorgiaLakeSearch

If you do not like paying property taxes go rent or buy a less expensive house. Property taxes are very fair especially here in GA and I live in the City of Atlanta so my rate is 44.435. And my property tax bill was many many times above the average for CoA. I do not mind it because if I wanted to pay less I could move to a cheaper house. And by the way I do not send my children to public schools.

)))

Well good. I'm glad. Because something tells me you knew I was going to say something about how is it fair that I gotta pay for all your children to go to school when I don't have any of my own?

Regardless of how much a home is worth, the property assessor has their own opinion and it's based on sales in the area. An abandoned crack house on W. Paces Ferry that was build in 1902 would be worth a fortune and would pay a lot of tax. If someone is retired and all their retirement savings was wiped out by Bernie Madoff, and they don't have any money coming in, they would still be required to come up with thousands of dollars each year to pay rent to the government. That's not fair. And expecting them to move isn't right either. They shouldn't have to do that.

Originally Posted by GeorgiaLakeSearch

There are so many income tax evaders. I bet there are people who even pay less income tax purely by accident. I own my own company and my taxes are crazy confusing thre are hundreds of pages of just craziness. I guess my CPA loves it!

)))

Yeah imagine the people that can't afford CPAs to find all the deductions and credits for them or to calculate their tax returns properly and as a result end up paying more.

Or the Mitt Romney types who used tax havens and kept their money off shore or found other loopholes.

It's clear that you are attracted to the concept of a flat sales tax because it's easy to understand. One simple number to remember and that's it. I totally get that. I wish it could be that simple too. Unfortunately the reasons why that won't work aren't nearly as easy to understand. By the way, it's kinda ironic you'd be in favor of a tax system that all of the European socialist countries use. It doesn't sound like you're a in favor of socialist policies.

[neil0311]

Originally Posted by cittic10

Or the Mitt Romney types who used tax havens and kept their money off shore or found other loopholes.

I don't condone anyone who breaks the law, but if people use legal loopholes or provisions of the tax code to their advantage, why is that bad, yet people who apply for programs that siphon off taxpayer money are good?

Are the "Obama types" who pay no taxes (as 47% of wage earners do) better than those who pay a huge amount, yet take advantage of legal ways to preserve some of their money (and it is THEIR money) from the gov't's greedy hands?

[Mishap]

Originally Posted by neil0311

I don't condone anyone who breaks the law, but if people use legal loopholes or provisions of the tax code to their advantage, why is that bad, yet people who apply for programs that siphon off taxpayer money are good?

Are the "Obama types" who pay no taxes (as 47% of wage earners do) better than those who pay a huge amount, yet take advantage of legal ways to preserve some of their money (and it is THEIR money) from the gov't's greedy hands?

So if Romney "legally" paid 0% (or some sub sales tax rate) by using all the tax shelters availed to him, he's morally just as much a deadbeat as your "Obama types"?

I don't much care for a welfare state but it seems to me the very wealthy have far more means to artificially reduce their tax liability that tend to fall far more into legal gray areas if not simply obfuscated enough to look legal. Those of us W-2 schlubs are the ones who get hit the hardest. I'm paying ~20% effective rate for federal alone. Tack on FICA on the first 110k, state and property taxes and I'm handing quite a chunk of change to various gov'ts. Unfortunately my income doesn't avail myself to hire an army of accountants and tax lawyers solely for the purpose of hiding income.

When a microscope is applied to these types of tax avoidance transactions, almost always there's some phony offsetting loss that's routed through shell companies in what at best is a legal loophole and at worse money laundering. Most of these high net worth individuals would rather pay accountants half the money to play the shell game vs. actually pay what's due like the rest of us.

See Below:
BDO Admits Generating $6.5 Billion In Phony Tax Shelter Losses, Pays $50 Million - Forbes

Older:
KPMG tax shelter fraud - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

[neil0311]

Originally Posted by Mishap

So if Romney "legally" paid 0% (or some sub sales tax rate) by using all the tax shelters availed to him, he's morally just as much a deadbeat as your "Obama types"?

I think you're confusing his personal taxes with something else, but in any case, if he can legally avail himself of ways to keep more of HIS money....I'm all for it. I don't support him doing anything illegal, which he has not done. Your information about Romney paying "0%" is not anything that I've heard. Credible source or are you just repeating liberal talking points where truth is just a side show?

There is a HUGE, TREMENDOUS difference between using the legal tax code to keep more of your own money, versus people who figure out ways to collect on the taxpayer dime, whether legal or not. Frankly, anyone who doesn't use the tax code and all means available to keep the most of their own money is an idiot. I wouldn't vote for him if he DIDN'T try to find shelters.

[Mishap]

There are tax shelters for individuals and those for corporations. Corporate ones tend to be even more elaborate and Romney most likely used both to minimize liability during his career. I'm not saying it's not smart business. Companies do it on a daily basis and pay accounting firms millions for the corporate gymnastics necessary as well as lawyers to sign off on it all being kosher.

I'm saying that it's very disingenuous to say 47% of people don't pay taxes when you know full well a larger chunk of lower income people's goes to FICA, sales taxes, embedded property taxes in rent, and state income taxes. Romney and others may well pay significant dollar amounts in taxes. What's not known is if they use various shelters to mask their true income making their actual effective rates far lower than they claim. Those worthless 47%'ers don't have people coming up w/ tax evasion schemes like BLIPS since many of them earn less than 20k/yr, are retirees, or young families.

You can't say Romney's money's all his but the 47%ers ought to owe more b/c they had zero federal taxes due (Romney could well have been in that 47% some years). There's not enough context around his finances to say he paid 1% or 75% of his actual earnings. Even if his tax returns were released, it won't tell you much except he had a lot of top line investment income and a lot of liability deductions. Whether or not those were real liabilities or tax shelter driven phantom liabilities it's not known. What is known is KPMG, BDO, et al aren't H&R Block doing your taxes for EITC and their 9 figure settlements with the IRS aren't b/c they stuck to the letter of the law in helping high net worth individuals minimize their taxes.

[Mishap]

Let's put it simply and remove Romney's name from the game. I only mentioned him b/c there are accusations he paid no taxes which if true would put him in your derisive 47%er category.

Let's instead look at internet entrepreneur Tom Gonzales who was selling his $50M home:
Unique Homes: Lake Tahoe compound with vanishing garage - May. 4, 2012

In the story he just says he's tired of it but ignores the fact that he's got an 8 figure IRS bill when his accountants(KPMG) sold him down the river for their blown tax shelter. This article is about him losing his lawsuit against RBC for charging inflated fees for a sham loan that would have offset his taxes.
RBS wins end to case linked to KPMG tax shelter

Was all of that money his? Is this being smart on deductions or is it outright fraud? At what level complexity is it purely about tax evasion and not about an actual business deduction? What's a fair percentage he should have paid?

[Big L]

Originally Posted by btard

Ever bought groceries there? Gas? Paid a utility bill?

You'll quickly find that FL is not cheaper.

That's true. In addition, if you live somewhere like Orlando or Miami, the tolls will begin to eat away at whatever you may have saved by not having state taxes taken out of your check.

[rcsteiner]

Originally Posted by neil0311

There is a HUGE, TREMENDOUS difference between using the legal tax code to keep more of your own money, versus people who figure out ways to collect on the taxpayer dime, whether legal or not. Frankly, anyone who doesn't use the tax code and all means available to keep the most of their own money is an idiot. I wouldn't vote for him if he DIDN'T try to find shelters.

I'm not sure I see a difference. Both result in a net loss to the government.

In addition, a tremendously wealthy person could end end up costing the government the same amount as dozens or hundreds (or more?) poor folks exploiting welfare and other programs.

If both acts are legal, why is one reprehensible and the other not? Shouldn't the same attitude apply to any exploitation of law in order to create personal gain and the resulting reduction of government funds?

[10 feet tall]

Originally Posted by rcsteiner

I'm not sure I see a difference. Both result in a net loss to the government.
In addition, a tremendously wealthy person could end end up costing the government the same amount as dozens or hundreds (or more?) poor folks exploiting welfare and other programs.

If the government didn't want to "lose" the money (as if it belonged to the government to begin with), then they should make it illegal. But it isn't illegal. So what is the issue?

That brings up another difference between conservatives (true ones anyway) and liberals. Conservatives believe that the money they make belongs to them first, then they give some to the government. Liberals believe that they money they make belongs to the government first, and then the government lets you keep some of it.