Getting Georgia Moving (Atlanta, Columbus, Savannah: fit in, how much, buying)

[arjay57]

Here's a plan from the Georgia Public Policy Foundation for getting transportation planing back on track. It may not satisfy the passenger rail advocated entirely because it recommends a network of BRT. However, they point out that even big cities like Rio de Janeiro are going the BRT route. The problem is that nobody can afford rail anymore.

They also recommend creating a new hub south of Atlanta so that everything won't get jammed up trying to get through the ATL.

Some pretty ideas for things that might actually be doable, in my opinion.


Getting Georgia Moving - YouTube!

[Ant131531]

Build more damn subway-type rail.

[ATLTJL]

Great find!

He makes some excellent points, especially that Georgia is not anti-transit, but it is fiscally conservative.

One thing I can't figure out is if the BRT system uses grade separated lanes, how does that really make it so much cheaper than rail? I thought the big expense for rail was land acquisition rights, not the cost of actually laying down rail and buying trains to run on them. Seems like you'd have a lot of these same costs with a BRT. If you don't grade separate a BRT system, it wouldn't be that much, if any, faster than driving yourself so it seems like you have to do it.

I love the idea of the freight network to get more shipping traffic out of Atlanta. Is that highway 27 a limited access highway? Trucks won't use it if they have to stop at a red light every quarter of a mile. If they do use it, getting that traffic out of Atlanta would help a lot.

The only thing I really didn't like was raping education. He said schools might say they don't need a full penny ESPLOST tax, they will take 1/2 and give the other half to transportation. I don't see schools doing this. When was the last time education had all the money it needed and said it didn't need any more? Transportation is great, but I don't think it should come at the expense of education.

Other than that, the guy seemed to know what he was talking about.

[cittic10]

Nothing wrong with BRT. It's upgradable.
We can start with BRT and switch it over to rail some day when money and demand says its time.

[tikigod311]

Originally Posted by ATLTJL

The only thing I really didn't like was raping education.

He didn't say that at all. He was referring to education infrastructure, "bricks and mortar" were his exact words. Around where I live, most schools are fairly modern. I'm certainly not saying that I know the condition of all schools around the state, so correct me if we have kids learning in asbestos ridden non air conditioned buildings. If he were talking about reducing the amount of money spent on instruction or materials, that would be concerning, but he wasn't.

I love the idea of them building out a freight oriented bypass around the metro. That is smart growth for the future by setting up industry to grow and removing a SIGNIFICANT portion of traffic off metro Atlanta highways.

[MathmanMathman]

One thing I can't figure out is if the BRT system uses grade separated lanes, how does that really make it so much cheaper than rail? I thought the big expense for rail was land acquisition rights, not the cost of actually laying down rail and buying trains to run on them. Seems like you'd have a lot of these same costs with a BRT. If you don't grade separate a BRT system, it wouldn't be that much, if any, faster than driving yourself so it seems like you have to do it.

Not sure why either, but if third world countries can afford it...so can we.

Originally Posted by ATLTJL

I love the idea of the freight network to get more shipping traffic out of Atlanta. Is that highway 27 a limited access highway? Trucks won't use it if they have to stop at a red light every quarter of a mile. If they do use it, getting that traffic out of Atlanta would help a lot.

I like it too. It looks like it would be a huge benefit for Macon if I'm reading that map right. It would be at the crossroads of the Atlanta by-pass, the Fall Line highway, and traffic from Savannah. Macon could become a air freight cargo center too to serve Atlanta and relieve HJIA.

[MathmanMathman]

Originally Posted by Ant131531

Build more damn subway-type rail.

He said that it is too pricey. We are pretty much driving from everywhere to everywhere. We can't cover the region by rail.

[cwkimbro]

Originally Posted by tikigod311

He didn't say that at all. He was referring to education infrastructure, "bricks and mortar" were his exact words. Around where I live, most schools are fairly modern. I'm certainly not saying that I know the condition of all schools around the state, so correct me if we have kids learning in asbestos ridden non air conditioned buildings. If he were talking about reducing the amount of money spent on instruction or materials, that would be concerning, but he wasn't.

I love the idea of them building out a freight oriented bypass around the metro. That is smart growth for the future by setting up industry to grow and removing a SIGNIFICANT portion of traffic off metro Atlanta highways.

I agree and disagree with the issue on the ESPLOST.

The reasoning is most areas that have a stable population or a gradually growing population probably don't need it, but the fast growing suburban counties around the state definitely needed it to keep up pace.

Before it... Gwinnett Schools, while great, were trailer parks. Packed full.

The ESPLOST enabled the system to catch up and stay ahead of the game in the infrastructure additions.

Now as far as transportation...

There was GSU a while back analyzing where the state collects and spends money. Basically found the urban areas were subsidizing the rural areas by a pretty big margin. One of the things I found interesting was the exurban counties were 1-to-1.

Part of the reason for this was state transportation spending. The state values certain types of roads and certain amounts. They help exurban build a basic core arterial network as they grow, but then thats it. Everything else must be county investment. This is partly why some state money isn't making its way into the urban areas at the same pace.

That aside my point is for newly growing greenfield areas the state is helping with transportation growth costs, but not education growth costs.

Whereas in stable, urban areas, the state is doing less to help transportation, but the Esplost might not be important to keep pace of student growth. Dekalb, as an older suburban county, actually has too much infrastructure/classroom space available and they are downsizing. I'm not sure how much they need to modernize or not.

So I understand the idea on the ESPLOST, but its a tax within each county and the situation is different from place to place.

The big thing is I think the state needs to increase the gas tax, so the revenue stays stable over time. Cars get more fuel efficient, less tax is collected, but the tax needs to change to those new dynamics.

[Columbuskidd92]

It's about time Highway 27 getting some recognition. That's Georgia short cut way to the Florida coast. There's already three lanes south and north bound in Columbus. Good traffic flow,and getting paved in the South Columbus section as we speak.

[ATLTJL]

He was referring to education infrastructure, "bricks and mortar" were his exact words.

Yeah, I'm just not sure I buy that.

He seemed to indicate that we could spend less by investing in technology instead of infrastructure in schools. I'm not sure I understand that, does technology somehow allow more students to fit in the same building?

As long as the population grows, the only alternative to not investing in "bricks and mortar" is increasing class sizes. I don't care how good technology gets, there is no substitute for low teacher/student ratios, and that will require classrooms and new schools all the time.

I don't even have children, I just believe that investing in education is the best possible bang for your buck in terms of solving future problems.