Make students pay out-of-pocket for first year - reimbursed at the end of the year by HOPE

[dichloromethane]

Originally Posted by Ant131531

I could care less if people feel sorry for me. I knew I was taking challenging courses and that, this was the risk. I screwed up in 2 of the classes and didn't do as well as I could have. My other 4 AP course, I did fine in...All A's and one B.

My SAT results shown. 1260 Math/Reading.. 1850 all 3 combined...that is near the top 10%. I didn't study for it much either like many people do. It almost came naturally. I'm doing fine in college now. Around a 3.5 though I'll admit, Georgia State is a rather easy school, but I chose it because I liked the urban environment or so I thought I would in Atlanta...still I have no regrets....had no desire to go to UGA or Tech for reasons I won't state here and didn't want to pay tons to go to an out of state school.

Trust me, I'm black myself and I don't feel like the blacks at the school I went to in highschool(Rockdale Co. High school) had it much harder then the whites there. I think there was almost an much equal chance for both ethnicities to succeed.

Say, if I went to Northview Highschool, then my 3.75 wouldn't have placed me in the top 10% probably because of how competitive that school is.

IMO, it's all relative to the highschool and college you attend. Some are a lot easier then others...some are incredibly challenging...some aren't.

I also agree taking silly majors like performing arts at a school like GA State or UGA is silly...Unless you're going to Julliard or Michigan, it's almost a waste of time and money.

Not sure why you named Michigan. Julliard or NYU*

Let's not forget that UGA's fine arts program is ranked 22nd in the nation. Georgia State is ranked 127rd. Now, I'm not going to debate fine arts degrees, but we need to give the artsy people credit where it's deserved. Also, they DID get into UGA or even Georgia State as opposed to spending so much more at Art Institute of Atlanta or SCAD.

Ant, the question is really how well you did on the AP exams than the class. Grade inflation.

But going back to the topic of HOPE...

[Ant131531]

Originally Posted by dichloromethane

Not sure why you named Michigan. Julliard or NYU*

Let's not forget that UGA's fine arts program is ranked 22nd in the nation. Georgia State is ranked 127rd. Now, I'm not going to debate fine arts degrees, but we need to give the artsy people credit where it's deserved. Also, they DID get into UGA or even Georgia State as opposed to spending so much more at Art Institute of Atlanta or SCAD.

Ant, the question is really how well you did on the AP exams than the class. Grade inflation.

But going back to the topic of HOPE...

Top Performing Arts Schools | World Ranking Guide

University of Michigan- Ann Arbor is considered one of the best, if not arguably the best performing arts school in the country. I know because I knew a great performing arts student who got admitted into Michigan and Julliard, but he chose Michigan. And as I said, your chances of being noticed if you're not going to a prestigious arts school is very slim to none.

I did well on almost all of my AP exams of the scoring mostly 3s and 4s with a 2 in there.

[dichloromethane]

Originally Posted by Ant131531

Top Performing Arts Schools | World Ranking Guide

University of Michigan- Ann Arbor is considered one of the best, if not arguably the best performing arts school in the country. I know because I knew a great performing arts student who got admitted into Michigan and Julliard, but he chose Michigan. And as I said, your chances of being noticed if you're not going to a prestigious arts school is very slim to none.

I did well on almost all of my AP exams of the scoring mostly 3s and 4s with a 2 in there.

You used a blog as a source with a title of "Ranking of World's Top Leading Universities and Best MBA Programs"

Best Fine Arts Programs | Top Fine Arts Schools | US News Graduate Schools

But I get what you're saying. Michigan is Michigan. It's a top school for virtually anything including fine arts a.

I was simply being pertinacious in pointing out that UGA is better.

AP exams are a far better indicator if you actually learned the material or if you watched movies all day.

[moneill]

[quote=Mishap;27022647]I wouldn't exactly say IE is the roughest major GT has to offer. [/QUOTE

No where in my post do i say IE was the hardest -- it is one of the majors I chose to demonstrate my point. Even the business/mgt.major at Tech is harder than State -- it is what it is.

As for the 'hardest hit'. If HOPE becomes income restricted, the families that will be the hardest -- without a doubt, will be those families just above the income restrictions. Those below still get HOPE and those way above it may not need HOPE.

[dichloromethane]

[quote=moneill;27040114]

Originally Posted by Mishap

I wouldn't exactly say IE is the roughest major GT has to offer. [/QUOTE

No where in my post do i say IE was the hardest -- it is one of the majors I chose to demonstrate my point. Even the business/mgt.major at Tech is harder than State -- it is what it is.

As for the 'hardest hit'. If HOPE becomes income restricted, the families that will be the hardest -- without a doubt, will be those families just above the income restrictions. Those below still get HOPE and those way above it may not need HOPE.

I don't think anyone was disputing the difficulty in courses at UGA/GT verses other schools. Trust me, it's there! Especially for science courses at UGA and any course at Tech

Yes, that's true, but someone has to lose a little for all of us to win. Those in the middle can still apply for plenty of other scholarships and Zell Miller is in their grasps as well. We have to do something.

I don't think people realize that HOPE is going to be GONE. It isn't simply going to wane away. By 2015 HOPE is estimated to cover 50% of tuition, but we had a thread a while back about how GA just overtook Michigan in terms of state population.

[testa50]

Casino. Gambling.

[Mishap]

No where in my post do i say IE was the hardest -- it is one of the majors I chose to demonstrate my point. Even the business/mgt.major at Tech is harder than State -- it is what it is.

As for the 'hardest hit'. If HOPE becomes income restricted, the families that will be the hardest -- without a doubt, will be those families just above the income restrictions. Those below still get HOPE and those way above it may not need HOPE.

Your point being an engineering major has more technical courses than a humanities major? IE skips Calc III, Diff Eq, and several other rather challenging courses necessary to graduate as an AE, EE, ECE, CE, or BME. Why should an IE get a full HOPE scholarship compared to any of them especially when those fields are in even greater shortage than churning out more business analysts? Should a STAC major at GT get money over a CS major at GSU? Remember HOPE doesn't exist to fund GT. It exists to help get more kids into college which is a communal good for the society. Look around to see how many people would still be at GT even w/o HOPE which would give you an idea of how many millions are spent needlessly for people who will go to GT regardless of cost outside of getting a full ride to MIT.

Given there aren't any specific #s thrown out for a means test doesn't it seem a little premature to say it'll hit those just above the cap? Right now HOPE is shrinking its per student outlay regardless of income which disproportionately hits lower income people harder since each dollar they have to pay is much harder to come by. Would a sliding scale above the cap blunt the blow? My definition of being hit hardest would be someone who winds up not being able to attend school at all or have to pull 8k of high interest debt vs. one that has to pay 4k/yr more out of pocket and rack up 4k/yr in debt. I'm not even talking about students at different schools...believe it or not there are smart kids at GT whose families only make the median HH income or less and shouldn't they get more support?

[Mishap]

Originally Posted by dichloromethane

I don't think anyone was disputing the difficulty in courses at UGA/GT verses other schools. Trust me, it's there! Especially for science courses at UGA and any course at Tech

Yes, that's true, but someone has to lose a little for all of us to win. Those in the middle can still apply for plenty of other scholarships and Zell Miller is in their grasps as well. We have to do something.

I don't think people realize that HOPE is going to be GONE. It isn't simply going to wane away. By 2015 HOPE is estimated to cover 50% of tuition, but we had a thread a while back about how GA just overtook Michigan in terms of state population.

My argument is that the market already picks winners and losers w/ the obvious winners being various engineering disciplines in this tech driven world. That said, the market is imperfect as well w/ incentives remaining for people to attend law school even though it's thoroughly saturated. We have plenty of incentives for people to attend GT...for one thing it costs pretty much the same as UGA, GSU, or KSU (outside small differences) even though its professors, facilities, and labs don't come cheap. Tons of people are qualified to get into GT but at the fringes there are people who aren't able to afford it. If you simply tie SAT to the GPA mix, you simply favor those families who can already afford GT (see my link). If you add SAT and a means test, you shrink the # of students covered but focus the investment on good students w/ more meager means which is a good way to increase bang for your buck.

Correlation between income and SAT:
SAT Scores and Family Income - NYTimes.com