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GSU's programs are far below par to what we had hoped they would be 10 years ago. Word is just now getting out. I only need to point at the first post and all subsequent 10-year trends. There was a time when GSU use to hold much promise. Now they've slipped considerably, not just financially. Regarding rankings, U.S. News has iffy methodology and is slow as the BLS. GSU holds no rank in other rankings, or very low ranks. I know the science program at GSU has had some issues. Sure, a few niche programs are successful, but the school will need to do more to remain competitive. Back in the day, we really worried about the state. Not we have to worry about schools around the world nabbing our students and vice versa. I think many people still see these schools(USG) as competing with each other. We see a hierarchy, but in reality it is an ecosystem(quote from the Chronicle). GSU does not compete with UGA and Georgia Tech for students - undergraduate or graduate. Nor do they compete for the same research grants. I would also argue that Georgia Tech and UGA do not, directly, compete with Emory. The top 20% at both schools may depending on major, but I don't think considerably. The socioeconomic behind Emory make them a bad fit for UGA and GT. Not to mention the social atmosphere. Now, the smaller schools have always and will always compete with each other for students. Nationally, schools want to "sell" their admissions ticket. It's not a new thing.
Either way, GSU is not doing well. Graduate applications to GSU have decreased over the past two years as have undergraduate applications(along with average scores for both applicants). A decrease in selectivity will result in a drop in rankings. I will make another thread analyzing GSU's shortcomings and possible fixes in the next few weeks. I want more data from the 2013 application cycle first. I'm very suspicious of Mark Becker. I haven't met him, but I haven't heard the best. Mathman, I think you and I will have interesting conversations on that new thread. I see that you're very passionate about GSU.
It's really more about your passion about UGA. I'd like to see a strong comprehensive university in Atlanta emerge and given GSU's central location, consolidating KSU-SPSU-CSU-GGC would (I think) be a good move. Gives a regional identity to the school, reduces duplication, and lowers costs. I'd like to know in what way is "Word is getting out" about GSU's troubles?
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I think you are both grossly underestimating University of Georgia's engineering faculty. In just a year, the university already has two NationalAcademy of Engineering as well as securing a national ranking.
Both of those guys are in Agricultural and Bioengineering. Not real engineering. I'm not personally crazy about that sort of "engineering" anyway as I think they are doing more harm than good to our food supply. UGA's engineering strength is in "applied biology".
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Remember, UGA has been able to do that sitting up the street from a world renowned engineering institution.
You can't go head-to-head with GT.
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The College was established less than 12 months ago. The biological engineering program is highly ranked by U.S. News as well. I suspect that UGA's engineering will become more along the lines of Ohio State and Florida's engineering in the coming years. UGA's engineering is already passed the SPSU level.
That's not really hard to do as SPSU is itself getting to the engineering level from engineering technology and that's not with the formal blessing of the USG. SPSU is sort of getting in through the backdoor while the BOR gives its blessings to UGA and Ga Southern.
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I think a gumbo university will not have students in mind mathman. I think it will have money in mind. I do think we have one or two more consolidations coming. The biggest picks are KSU-SPSU. BOR has already expressed interest in this before. The others are more south GA mergers. Realistically, can we expect any big time mergers? No.
UGA and GT think as much if not more about money than GSU. And what does "Gumbo University" mean? And when has the BOR expressed especial interest in a KSU-SPSU merger? And why do you think more mergers are imminent?
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A KSU-GSU merger would certainly be beneficial, but it's like fanning a match during a hurricane. It won't happen in a million years.
I don't think the odds are that far from it. But I could see a KSU-SPSU merger as possible and if it happened I wouldn't be surprised. I'm not sure what the BOR is thinking. I'd like to see a GSU-Downtown, GSU-North, GSU-South, and GSU Polytechnic. And perhaps a GSU-Northeast added on to that.
Mathman,
You are right in most respects, at least partially. UGA's engineering program is brand new so it has to grow considerably to touch GT. The percentage of engineering students at GT and SPSU should always be highrer than at UGA and GSouthern. This should mean that SPSU and GT will have engineering as a priority, rather than a "me-too."
Engineering and medicine require the two largest investments in state capital to teach. How many colleges do you know of that had their own nuclear reactor? GT did. Hopefully, the BOR won't consider duplicating all the high-priced equipment and ge-gaws at all four(?) state schools that grant or will grant engineering and related degrees.
A question to UGA and GSouthern is will their engineering programs have to dance around what GT considers its province. SPSU has had to do that even to this day. The "thou shall nots" imposed upon SPSU when it separated from GT makes the healthcare bill look like a pamphlet. For years SPSU could not offer any degree for which GT had a counterpart. Another restriction was that SPSU cannot compete in the same athletic conference as GT, as though this is likely to happen. As is understood, GT went so far as to discourage SPSU's having a football team. Another unlikely venture even without Ma Tech still looking over SPSU's shoulder.
Knowing UGA, I would think they would want to align their engineering programs more closely with GT's than with GSouthern's or SPSU"s. They probably will hunger for the big engineering/science research bucks GT now gets. GT might have a bump or two in the road ahead.
I think UGA will find its own path. No way can they keep up with GT. For the short term, UGA will certainly be bioengineering.
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With the economy in a tailspin and manufacturing fleeing the U.S., is now the time to pay for four engineering schools in Georgia given the current economic/political cesspool we are swimming in?
That train has already left the station. SPSU should think of hitching its wagon to GSU.
Dichlor,
Your quote on an SPSU-KSU merger-
"I think a gumbo university will not have students in mind mathman. I think it will have money in mind. I do think we have one or two more consolidations coming. The biggest picks are KSU-SPSU. BOR has already expressed interest in this before. The others are more south GA mergers. Realistically, can we expect any big time mergers? No."
Should the BOR seriously propose an SPSU-KSU merger, they will receive considerable resistance from the SPSU community. SPSU's being part of GT turned into a travesty before the two schools separated. I don't see how KSU can do a better job with SPSU than could GT.
You are right about any large or gumbo university being money and power hungry. They are government entities and that's part of their DNA.
A KSU-SPSU or even a GSU-SPSU merger would be a different animal. SPSU's programs mirrors GT's and GT is not interested in SPSU's growth and development as the two are not one. I can see both GSU or KSU taking an active interest in SPSU if fully merged. Little duplication between any of the two schools. The advantage of GSU is SPSU's programs will do much more research with doctoral programs.
Unlike, Michael Adams, Mark Becker is much better at hiding things from the public. I will reveal what I [should] can in my GSU analysis thread. GSU's troubles are usually a closely guarded secret among faculty, but I think applying students should know. The Georgia State we have now isn't the Georgia State many of us think of.
I think more mergers are coming because Huckaby and the BOR said so. It's not like we want to do it, it's more that we have to. If you actually look at the BOR's budget and follow the money, you'll see that Georgia is not out of the woods yet with the recession. We will have to do something to cut costs for schools. Maybe it will be in the form of consolidations, maybe pay freezes(I hope not), maybe program cuts. It will really depend on the individual school. UGA was supposed to have all of its 4-H outreach centers cut, but private donations saved them all. Georgia Tech was going to cut its Summer P.E.A.K.S program, but they managed to save it as well. Columbus state, ASU, Clayton state and U west Georgia have gone scissor hungry with program cuts.
By Gumbo university, I mean your "master plan" for taking all the troubled smaller schools in the state and throwing them under one name. What does it accomplish? Consider the actual instruction.
I digress, I would not be totally against a GSU-KSU merger, but only if they take SPSU along with it.
And now, UGA and Georgia Tech will not care. Both schools have seen a record number of applicants this year(after posting a record last year). Georgia State Kennesaw Polytech University will not have any affect on the admissions process at large, at least not with enrollment.
Mathman,
"The College was established less than 12 months ago. The biological engineering program is highly ranked by U.S. News as well. I suspect that UGA's engineering will become more along the lines of Ohio State and Florida's engineering in the coming years. UGA's engineering is already passed the SPSU level."
"That's not really hard to do as SPSU is itself getting to the engineering level from engineering technology and that's not with the formal blessing of the USG. SPSU is sort of getting in through the backdoor while the BOR gives its blessings to UGA and Ga Southern."
That's an interesting observation about UGA's engineering superiority over SPSU's. By what quantitative measure did you arrive at that conclusion, in just twelve months? It's easier to name schools that have not been ranked by U.S. News than those that have. SPSU has been ranked by that publication.
Not with the formal blessing of the USG? News to me. I would have thought the USG would have to approve any new degree offering by any state university. Is this not correct?
SPSU has never been a darling in the USG. GT saw to that. SPSU did have to scramble to add engineering have to its offerings. However, SPSU's engineering technology programs were and are as rigorous as many other colleges engioneering programs. The BOR initially approved engineering at SPSU only as night classes. This is ironic as SPSU started life as GT's night school on the GT campus in 1948. SPSU's degrees do not fully mirror GT's, the former are more application-oriented, the latter are virtually all theory. However, both schools' programs fall under the accreditation of ABET, the Accreditation Board for Engineering and Technology.
Another reason the BOR approved engineering at SPSU is that a few states don't accept an engineering technology degee as sufficient to take the state professional engineering (PE) exam. In most states this is one of the most difficult professional exams and processes in the U.S. SPSU graduates have acquitted themselves quite well, even when the school was only two-year engineering technology.
As to SPSU's remaining autonomous, the school is growing and rapidly adding programs and degrees that are viable in this economic environment. At some point in the near future, SPSU will be offering doctoral degrees. If SPSU were to merge with a liberal arts KSU or GSU, the liberal arts influence would be dominant by virture of sheer size and numbers. I don't think it will happen. If the BOR makes overtures in this direction, they will encounter considerable resistance. Some mergers are beneficial to both schools. The NGCSU and Gainesville State bonding is a good example. SPSU with any other school is not.
UGA's engineering probably won't be a threat to GT, SPSU, or GSouthern. It would take them decades to begin to rival GT, if ever. SPSU's approach to engineering will continue to be a mix of theory and the applied. It's doubtful that UGA will offer much in the way of applied engineering.
UGA's program probably will evolve into the "boutique" engineering school under the spreading oak trees.
UGA has been ranked by US News as well. They have increased in ranking every year since they have sent anything to US News. Check the biological engineering rank. The big 3 engineering disciplines are still very new at UGA. By surpassing SPSU, I meant in research expenditure, which isn't hard to believe. I think SPSU still produces more engineers than UGA annually, simply because UGA hasn't even matriculated its first class of ME and EC engineering(fall 2013). SPSU is regionally ranked, not nationally. Their engineering program is unranked.
Yes, you are correct about the USG and University Council having to approve new programs. UGA's programs were approved by both after decades of opposition from Georgia Tech. Although, I sided with Tech back then. Without UGA's strong biological and agricultural engineering programs, I wouldn't have felt engineering a good fit.
"At some point in the near future, SPSU will be offering doctoral degrees."
I rather doubt it. GSU is a research university, not a liberal arts school. KSU is a state university.
UGA's engineering is not at the level of SPSU and GA Southern whether your measure is research, quality of undergraduate and/or graduate students or facilities. I can't comment on the instruction because I haven't looked at all of it. UGA competes with Clemson, Alabama, Florida, UT-Knoxville, Auburn and other schools of the like. Again, I would like to see UGA compete with TAMU, Florida and Ohio State in engineering, but it will take time.
UGA has been ranked by US News as well. They have increased in ranking every year since they have sent anything to US News. Check the biological engineering rank. The big 3 engineering disciplines are still very new at UGA. By surpassing SPSU, I meant in research expenditure, which isn't hard to believe. I think SPSU still produces more engineers than UGA annually, simply because UGA hasn't even matriculated its first class of ME and EC engineering(fall 2013). SPSU is regionally ranked, not nationally. Their engineering program is unranked.
Yes, you are correct about the USG and University Council having to approve new programs. UGA's programs were approved by both after decades of opposition from Georgia Tech. Although, I sided with Tech back then. Without UGA's strong biological and agricultural engineering programs, I wouldn't have felt engineering a good fit.
"At some point in the near future, SPSU will be offering doctoral degrees."
I rather doubt it. GSU is a research university, not a liberal arts school. KSU is a state university.
UGA's engineering is not at the level of SPSU and GA Southern whether your measure is research, quality of undergraduate and/or graduate students or facilities. I can't comment on the instruction because I haven't looked at all of it. UGA competes with Clemson, Alabama, Florida, UT-Knoxville, Auburn and other schools of the like. Again, I would like to see UGA compete with TAMU, Florida and Ohio State in engineering, but it will take time.
GA Southern is something engineering folk should keep their eyes on. I don't know how GA Southern and SPSU compete with each other.
Dichlor,
If you are comparing research and facilities, there is none. SPSU is not a research university. UGA has some 35,000 students and doctoral programs. SPSU has 6,000 students and does not yet offer PhD degrees. SPSU's president has publicaly spoken to the likelihood of offering this degree in the near future. Maybe she knows something we don't.
One comparison of UGA to SPSU would be the number of engineering and related program graduates. SPSU has over 20,000.
Without having a complete engineering graduating class in ME, CE, EE, etc., as yet, I would think it difficult to rank them anywhere. UGA programs in Ag. Eng. and Bio. Eng. probably are ABET accredited. The school probably has had those programs for years. But these programs are limited in scope and generally not considered mainstream compared to ME, CE, EE, etc.
ABET accredits engineering programs only after classes have graduated. ABET accredits only individual degree programs, not schools or colleges of engineering.
You are correct in that GT jealously guards what it considers to be its domain in Georgia. SPSU has paid and is still paying for the privilege of being under GT's purview for over 32 years. GT has a right to be proud, but not tyrannical.
My nomenclature probably is incorrect, but in this context, I consider a liberal arts school one that does not have engineering in some significant form. I have attended UGA, GT, and Clemson. I have worked with or have had graduates of the other schools you mentioned work for me. Clemson, UT, and Auburn offer, or at least did offer, a more applied focus than does GT. Most engineering schools seem to be either drifting or rushing toward theory and research. This is what makes SPSU so valuable in its niche.
GT made the decision in the 1940's or 1950's to focus on theory and heavy-duty research. That is part of what brought SPSU into being, the need for applied engineering for industry. This is still SPSU's objective. The complexity of technology in this day does offer SPSU the need and opportunity to productively engage in applied research, to a certain extent.
I am not disparaging GT or UGA. They have their place in education as does SPSU. To the unwashed, SPSU seems to be "less than." To the companies that hire SPSU grads, the job offers and starting salaries say otherwise. I'm only speaking my piece in defense of a very good university fulfilling a need met by only a hadnful of colleges in the U.S. SPSU does not directly compete with UGA or GT. Nor does it have to.
Last edited by consultingengineer; 02-26-2013 at 01:42 PM..
Dichlor,
By the way, UGA and SPSU don't share any degree programs accredited by ABET. UGA has three accredited programs, while SPSU now has twelve. SPSU will have an additional six engineering degree programs ABET accredited by next year. Georgia Southern has five and Mercer has two ABET programs. GT has eighteen.
The architecture programs at SPSU and GT have the same accreditation, NAAB.
As to practical mergers, the new GGC campus is costing a ton of taxpayer dollars. The school is within fairly easy driving distance of UNG-Gainesville and GPC, I would think.
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And perhaps a GSU-Northeast added on to that. 
Mergers
