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Old 03-13-2013, 11:49 PM
 
Location: East Point
4,790 posts, read 6,824,262 times
Reputation: 4782

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Saintmarks View Post
Just for comparison, here is a map of the limited access roads here in the Dallas Fort Worth area. The green roads are toll roads, the others multi-lane limited access freeways. This does not include an outer beltway being mapped to encircle the whole region. Would be interesting to overlay this on Atlanta... even just the Dallas side without Fort Worth... to see what an improvent to traffic flow this kind of road network would do for the Atlanta region. Note the great east/west access to the north of Dallas.
the thing is, dallas looks like this 40 miles out:

Google Maps

no one gives a damn what happens to that land.

atlanta by comparison looks like this 40 miles out:

Google Maps

a lot of folks live out there, and the land is beautiful and dense with trees. you're going to make an awful lot of people angry building an interstate through the forest.
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Old 03-14-2013, 12:08 AM
 
7,132 posts, read 9,080,421 times
Reputation: 6333
Quote:
Originally Posted by bryantm3 View Post
the thing is, dallas looks like this 40 miles out:

Google Maps

no one gives a damn what happens to that land.

atlanta by comparison looks like this 40 miles out:

Google Maps

a lot of folks live out there, and the land is beautiful and dense with trees. you're going to make an awful lot of people angry building an interstate through the forest.
Lol, you can easily just choose 40 miles out south of southeast of Atlanta and it would look what example you chose for Dallas. You can't just choose the area that fits your bias.
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Old 03-14-2013, 02:37 AM
 
Location: East Point
4,790 posts, read 6,824,262 times
Reputation: 4782
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ant131531 View Post
Lol, you can easily just choose 40 miles out south of southeast of Atlanta and it would look what example you chose for Dallas. You can't just choose the area that fits your bias.
but we aren't talking about the southeast— we're talking about the northern arc. the location i chose is actually on the proposed path of the northern arc. you can't get more relevant than that.
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Old 03-14-2013, 02:55 AM
 
Location: Atlanta
7,574 posts, read 10,695,143 times
Reputation: 6512
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ant131531 View Post
Lol, you can easily just choose 40 miles out south of southeast of Atlanta and it would look what example you chose for Dallas. You can't just choose the area that fits your bias.
While I don't feel his arguments makes a complete adaquete excuse, there is a truth to it.

We are an east coast state. One that was primarily built off an agricultural economy. Our rural areas, overall, are more built and dense...for a rural area.

It is one reason our city spreads so far, because developers in exurban areas don't have to wait on road building to access land. We have a fairly extensive rural road network.

On the other far end of that is Phoenix where there are very few rural roads and no population. Nothing is built until the city builds it, but when they do it build it is extremely cheap and easy process. I feel like Dallas is probably somewhere in between Atlanta and Phoenix in that respects.

It is more expensive for us to acquire right of way and work with the terrain.

Of course, that shouldn't be an excuse for doing nothing either...
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Old 03-14-2013, 05:30 AM
 
Location: Georgia native in McKinney, TX
8,057 posts, read 12,786,336 times
Reputation: 6318
The area of northern Collin County (where I live now) will most likely be the first to get construction on the outer loop. It is just as dense as areas of Forsuth, Bartow and Cherokee. Many have done just like Atlantans, have moved out to these rural areas and bought some acreage and have built nice homes. Texas is still much more agricentric (if I can make up a word), far more than north Georgia. I don't think the argument is any different here. Some will not want it to cut through their land, others will welcome it and hope their property values go up.

The NIMBYs have a lot more say in Georgia it seems.

But the thing I wanted you guys to see is the other east west roads that are in the northern burbs that Atlanta doesn't have. The first toll way to the north of 635 (Dallas' equivalent of 285) is the Bush Turnpike. It would be like having a road connecting Marietta to Roswell to Norcross. Above that is the recently completed 121 tollroad (recently renamed the Sam Rayburn Tollway) which would be like having another road north of the one I just mentioned, like from Acworth to Woodstock to Alpharetta to Suwanee. Just think how much easier it would be to get around the northern burbs with a couple of tollways (or even better, freeways) like that.

These roads were mapped out years ago. Forward thinkers new this land would develop. The land did start developing before the roads were built, but the right of ways were set and no one built in their paths. Again, the land developed and those that knew the region would need limited access saw to it that the area got it. It developed anyway, not just because a road was there.

This thinking that a road automatically means sprawl is ludicrous. These areas in Atlanta have sprawled without them. Now it is too built up to have a road like this.
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Old 03-14-2013, 08:27 AM
 
Location: Kirkwood
23,726 posts, read 24,709,235 times
Reputation: 5702
Invest money in upgrading arterial road network.
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Old 03-14-2013, 08:53 AM
 
Location: on the road to new job
324 posts, read 710,704 times
Reputation: 184
Quote:
Originally Posted by aries4118 View Post
Remember though--commuter rail is largely different from MARTA's heavy rail system.

Commuter rail would be established on existing rail-lines and would extend from the city center, through the suburbs, on out to the exurban/rural fringe.
When I think of light rail - that's Chicago's EL (electric) system. Heavy rail (or 150#/ft) is Metra or CNW, Milwaukee Road which uses large EMD engines.
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Old 03-14-2013, 09:09 AM
 
Location: ITP
2,138 posts, read 6,299,370 times
Reputation: 1391
Quote:
Originally Posted by Saintmarks View Post
The area of northern Collin County (where I live now) will most likely be the first to get construction on the outer loop. It is just as dense as areas of Forsuth, Bartow and Cherokee. Many have done just like Atlantans, have moved out to these rural areas and bought some acreage and have built nice homes. Texas is still much more agricentric (if I can make up a word), far more than north Georgia. I don't think the argument is any different here. Some will not want it to cut through their land, others will welcome it and hope their property values go up.

The NIMBYs have a lot more say in Georgia it seems.

But the thing I wanted you guys to see is the other east west roads that are in the northern burbs that Atlanta doesn't have. The first toll way to the north of 635 (Dallas' equivalent of 285) is the Bush Turnpike. It would be like having a road connecting Marietta to Roswell to Norcross. Above that is the recently completed 121 tollroad (recently renamed the Sam Rayburn Tollway) which would be like having another road north of the one I just mentioned, like from Acworth to Woodstock to Alpharetta to Suwanee. Just think how much easier it would be to get around the northern burbs with a couple of tollways (or even better, freeways) like that.

These roads were mapped out years ago. Forward thinkers new this land would develop. The land did start developing before the roads were built, but the right of ways were set and no one built in their paths. Again, the land developed and those that knew the region would need limited access saw to it that the area got it. It developed anyway, not just because a road was there.

This thinking that a road automatically means sprawl is ludicrous. These areas in Atlanta have sprawled without them. Now it is too built up to have a road like this.
Dallas-Fort Worth is a good example of being proactive when it comes to developing infrastructure. It should also be noted that the Metroplex is very proactive when it comes to building transit also, as they are now constructing an LRT line connecting the northwest suburbs and the airport with downtown Dallas. They've also just opened a commuter rail line to Denton.

Both roads and transit have a need and a lot of times they're not mutually exclusive. You need good roads to facilitate the movement of goods and services through the metro area and you need transit to connect the labor pool to jobs.

For those concerned about roads causing sprawl - it will take a combination of market forces and good policy to mitigate it. Market forces in the form of high gas prices and policy in the form of growth boundaries.
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Old 03-14-2013, 03:04 PM
 
Location: Georgia
5,845 posts, read 6,118,363 times
Reputation: 3573
Quote:
Originally Posted by bryantm3 View Post
a 285 north perimeter line would really do wonders— for example there are people that live in gwinnett who work in cobb, people who live in alpharetta that work in doraville, people that live in kennesaw and work in vinings, etc. it would be a major convenience for those who don't want to travel all the way downtown to then go back north on a different line. this is assuming that the cobb and 400 lines are built already, by the way. honestly i think heavy rail could work there, but it doesn't seem to be too popular.

imagine what a line like this could do, in conjunction with heavy rail lines up 85 and 75:

light rail perimeter line - Google Maps
That would be AWESOME. In fact I've proposed a light rail corridor that follows a very similar route to that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MathmanMathman View Post
The Northern Arc would be way better.
It wouldn't be better. It wouldn't be worse. The Northern Arc would serve a different need: a bypass for through traffic on the north end. Most freight in this country is shipped by truck, so even the best transit system in the world wouldn't directly help the truckers and those that share highways with them. The Marietta-Perimeter-Gwinnett light rail line would give Perimeter commuters--one of the biggest employment centers in the state outside Midtown/downtown--an alternate way to get there.
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Old 03-14-2013, 03:07 PM
 
Location: Kirkwood
23,726 posts, read 24,709,235 times
Reputation: 5702
Quote:
That would be AWESOME. In fact I've proposed a light rail corridor that follows a very similar route to that.
It looks as if it runs in the road with mixed traffic?
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