Intown conveniences are relatively new (Atlanta, Sandy Springs: home, buy, living in)

[Nast]

Originally Posted by red92s

I hear we might get a Red Robin soon!

Well, we do have a Golden Corral coming soon at North DeKalb mall.

[arjay57]

Originally Posted by George Chong

Wasn't that a Circuit City?

Oh, yeah, it was a Circuit City.

[arjay57]

Originally Posted by Ant131531

I didn't realize Atlanta started developing from it's suburbs inward.

I think that's pretty typical. Many cities experienced massive decentralization during the 1950s-80s, while the suburbs were growing by leaps and bounds. The city of Atlanta, for instance, is still a long way from reaching its 1960 population level.

Since retail tends to follow the population, one of the consequences of the emptying out of cities was that new development took place mainly in the suburbs. In many cities intown retail had been in decline as early as the 1930s.

[waronxmas]

Originally Posted by arjay57

I think that's pretty typical. Many cities experienced massive decentralization during the 1950s-80s, while the suburbs were growing by leaps and bounds. The city of Atlanta, for instance, is still a long way from reaching its 1960 population level.

Since retail tends to follow the population, one of the consequences of the emptying out of cities was that new development took place mainly in the suburbs. In many cities intown retail had been in decline as early as the 1930s.

That's part of it. Another major part of it too is that the central cities of the East (both North and South) developed their retail areas prior to the big box era. Those chains tended to move in to the burgeoning new suburban areas rather than the central cities that as you cite were losing population rapidly. Not finding these types of stores is not an Atlanta specific phenomena as the same is true in New York or DC or Philadelphia (of course, it's a bonus for those cities when it's brought up).

[ATLTJL]

Of course big box retail is a major convenience. That's why everybody got so excited when the Edgewood shopping center came, when they opened that shopping center on Ponce near Monroe, and when the Sidney Marcus development happened.

And come on, let's not split hairs. Northlake does have some shopping centers that are ITP as does Cumberland....but these are basically at the perimeter. To call them ITP is really splitting hairs since they are less than a mile ITP, you knew the idea of what the original post was saying.

Is it possible to live life without big box? Of course it is. If you don't mind going to mom and pop hardware stores where most of what you need will have to be special ordered. Or you can go to Home Depot or Lowes and get it right away. You can buy electronics at a small independent store. Of course, then you pay a lot more and have much less lenient return policies to deal with. Have you ever tried buying anything at a small urban electronics store? You're lucky to get something that isn't an open box.

The argument that big box retail doesn't make life easier is pretty ridiculous. I reject the notion that small independent retailers serve community needs as well. The strongest argument I would buy regarding big box retail is that the internet is making it less relevant. However, when you deal with the internet, you are dealing with the ultimate in big box, it's just that the inventory is hundreds of miles away instead of right there.

Most people find life much easier when they can go to Costco, Target, Publix, Best Buy, Home Depot, and so on. Of course alternatives exist, but more often than not they are less convenient and more expensive. I'm not quite sure why I have to explain this.

[cqholt]

Originally Posted by ATLTJL

Of course big box retail is a major convenience. That's why everybody got so excited when the Edgewood shopping center came, when they opened that shopping center on Ponce near Monroe, and when the Sidney Marcus development happened.

And come on, let's not split hairs. Northlake does have some shopping centers that are ITP as does Cumberland....but these are basically at the perimeter. To call them ITP is really splitting hairs since they are less than a mile ITP, you knew the idea of what the original post was saying.

Is it possible to live life without big box? Of course it is. If you don't mind going to mom and pop hardware stores where most of what you need will have to be special ordered. Or you can go to Home Depot or Lowes and get it right away. You can buy electronics at a small independent store. Of course, then you pay a lot more and have much less lenient return policies to deal with. Have you ever tried buying anything at a small urban electronics store? You're lucky to get something that isn't an open box.

The argument that big box retail doesn't make life easier is pretty ridiculous. I reject the notion that small independent retailers serve community needs as well. The strongest argument I would buy regarding big box retail is that the internet is making it less relevant. However, when you deal with the internet, you are dealing with the ultimate in big box, it's just that the inventory is hundreds of miles away instead of right there.

Most people find life much easier when they can go to Costco, Target, Publix, Best Buy, Home Depot, and so on. Of course alternatives exist, but more often than not they are less convenient and more expensive. I'm not quite sure why I have to explain this.

But those typical big box retailers can build more urban, smaller stores. Perfect examples are the Walmarts in DC, Target in downtown Seattle, and even the Target at Lenox Marketplace. I do love having the convenience of the Edgewood retail District within walking distance, 1 mile, of my house. I just hate the massive parking lot.

[red92s]

Originally Posted by ATLTJL

Most people find life much easier when they can go to Costco, Target, Publix, Best Buy, Home Depot, and so on. Of course alternatives exist, but more often than not they are less convenient and more expensive. I'm not quite sure why I have to explain this.

But there have been Targets, [large grocery stores], Super Clubs, Home Depots, Best Buys, and so on inside the perimeter for decades. Nobody has postured that these are not convenient; only that it's not some novel new amenity in-towners have only recently been graced with having access to, which was the entire premise of this thread.

[arjay57]

Originally Posted by waronxmas

That's part of it. Another major part of it too is that the central cities of the East (both North and South) developed their retail areas prior to the big box era. Those chains tended to move in to the burgeoning new suburban areas rather than the central cities that as you cite were losing population rapidly. Not finding these types of stores is not an Atlanta specific phenomena as the same is true in New York or DC or Philadelphia (of course, it's a bonus for those cities when it's brought up).

No doubt about it. U.S. cities have been fighting the decentralization trend for a long time and it is by no means unique to Atlanta.

Later that year a group of downtown Atlanta businessmen and property owners led by Robert Maddox, a banker, property owner, and former mayor [who lived on West Paces where the current Governor's Mansion is located and no connection to Lester Maddox], set up the Atlanta Central Improvement Association. Its goal, wrote Skyscraper Management, was "to swing back the trend of decentralization and build up the heart of Atlanta's business district."

That was 1941, and 70 years later Central Atlanta Progress is still battling the same issue.

[arjay57]

Originally Posted by red92s

But there have been Targets, [large grocery stores], Super Clubs, Home Depots, Best Buys, and so on inside the perimeter for decades. Nobody has postured that these are not convenient; only that it's not some novel new amenity in-towners have only recently been graced with having access to, which was the entire premise of this thread.

Well, that is true. And it's also true that strip centers first began to proliferate intown.

Later, the larger shopping centers and the first big malls were intown.

And we did have most of the early big boxes (who can forget Richway, Zayre, and the cool two story K-Mart at Lindbergh?)

But I do think it is fair to say that the latest iteration where you see rows of big boxes lined up has sort of been an inward movement from the suburbs.

[ATLTJL]

But there have been Targets, [large grocery stores]

Until recently, none of the ITP Targets were super Targets with large grocery stores. Atlantic Station and Lindberg changed that, and that was recent.

Super Clubs

Even that Sam's on Clairmont is relatively new. I don't know exactly how new, but I remember when they built it and I have only lived here since 1996.

Home Depots,

True, Home Depot did have some older dirtier stores intown because it is based in Atlanta.

Best Buys, and so on inside the perimeter for decades.

Best Buy has only been intown for a few years. Fine, if you want to split hairs, the Northlake Best Buy may technically be inside the perimeter. But I hardly call that intown.

But those typical big box retailers can build more urban, smaller stores.

I know what you are saying, but I disagree that the stores have to be smaller. The Target that you refernced is a perfect example. It has a parking deck and is spread out on two floors, but I don't believe that it actually has any less square footage than a regular non-super Target. The Toys R Us in Times Square is another perfect example. It fits in just fine with its surroundings, but it is actually huge. I think it's the largest Toys R Us in the country, maybe world, I don't know, but it is huge. Stores can build urban wihthout sacrificing size.

I'm glad the old K-Mart was brought up because it's a perfect example of how development moved. When was that store built, probably the 60s? Maybe 50s? It was old and decrepit by the time it was finally razed. It was obvious K-Mart didn't pour any money or resources into it because that area was not considered profitable. What's happened there now is a testament to how recent the idea of retail of this nature in an area like that is.

I can actually cite examples of intown stores being built larger than suburban counterparts. I don't know the term they use, but some Bed, Bath, and Beyonds are larger than others and have drug stores in them. The one in Buckhead on Piedmont is like this. However, the BB&B at Mall of Georgia, where everybody built huge stores, is nowhere near as large as the Buckhead location. I'm starting to see this more and more, so the trend is revesing. All I'm saying is this is a relatively recent phenomenon. I think the posters with sense understand this concept.