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Old 06-08-2013, 11:15 AM
 
93 posts, read 101,961 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Born 2 Roll View Post
...You may not elect to take a train between Atlanta and Charlotte, but that does not mean that there is no one in a road infrastructure-challenged Metro Atlanta region of 6.1 million people that would elect to ride a train to and from a metro region of 2.4 million people in Charlotte that is referred to by many as the Financial Capital of the Southeast.

One must also keep-in-mind that just like air travel and automobile travel, high-speed passenger rail travel would not exist in a vacuum as a cottage industry of automobile rentals and other assorted commercial services (shops, restaurants, hotels, retail, etc) that would pop up around major train stations in highly-populated areas.

Zipcar is already making plans to offer rental car services around some stations of existing urban light rail and heavy rail lines in major cities, including Atlanta.
You are missing the point. I don't think anyone is seriously saying that no one would ride a train. There would be some ridership. The point that you can't seem to comprehend is that there will not be enough ridership to justify the massive initial and ongoing expense associated with rail , let alone HSR.

I think you might just love the choo choo a little too much to see this rationally.
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Old 06-08-2013, 11:16 AM
 
9,732 posts, read 9,628,869 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BajanYankee View Post
How would that trip work logistically?

Traveling from NYC to DC is pretty easy. You can catch the train or take a cab to Penn Station.

Penn Station, New York, NY - Google Maps

And then hop a cab to Downtown from Union Station. You could also take Metro.

Union Station, Washington, DC - Google Maps

Peachtree Station is completely isolated.

Amtrak Station-ATL, Peachtree Street Northwest, Atlanta, GA - Google Maps

And Charlotte's station is even more isolated.

Amtrak Station-CLT, North Tryon Street, Charlotte, NC - Google Maps
...Your comments reflect the need to improve first-mile/last-mile connectivity as part of any upgrade and expansion of passenger rail service in the Atlanta region where existing cab and shuttle service is not exactly what one could call robust at the moment.

First and foremost, first-mile and last-mile connectivity would be improved with taxicabs and the active coordination of local and regional airport-type shuttles where applicable.

First-mile and last-mile connectivity can also be improved with increased availability of park & ride service.
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Old 06-08-2013, 04:17 PM
 
9,732 posts, read 9,628,869 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by #1MARTAFan View Post
You are missing the point. I don't think anyone is seriously saying that no one would ride a train. There would be some ridership. The point that you can't seem to comprehend is that there will not be enough ridership to justify the massive initial and ongoing expense associated with rail , let alone HSR.
...To say that there would only be "some ridership" or "that there will not be enough ridership to justify the investment in HSR" is the equivalent of someone saying that there would is not enough automobile use on a superhighway network to justify the massive initial and ongoing expense of maintaining the road infrastructure of the I-85 right-of-way.

Or worse yet, saying that there would only be "some ridership" or "that there will not be enough ridership to justify the investment in HSR" is the equivalent of someone saying that there would not be enough people riding airplanes to justify the massive investments and ongoing expenses associated with maintaining the infrastructure needed for airplane travel.

...Saying that there would never be enough people traveling by airplane is something that a few highly-skeptical naysayers actually said when visionairies around the country like former Atlanta Mayor William Hartsfield were making moves to invest in the infrastructure needed to support airplane travel back in the pre-Korean War era before airplane travel became as overwhelmingly popular as it would eventually become and Atlanta went on to become the site of the busiest passenger airport on the entire planet.

If a visionary like William Hartsfield had succumbed to the naysayers then Atlanta (an international city with a metro population of 6.1 million and site of the world's busiest passenger airport) and its economy would look a lot more like a Birmingham (1.1 million metro pop. and an infinitely much smaller and much more insignifcant airport that only serves 3 million passengers each year as opposed to the 95 million passengers that the world-leading Atlanta Airport serves each year) than the rising international economic, cultural and entertainment powerhouse that Atlanta has become.

...Which going back in time and looking and becoming something like Birmingham is seemingly something that many of the anti-infrastructure investment and anti-planning for the future naysayers would actually prefer or like to see.

Quote:
Originally Posted by #1MARTAFan View Post
I think you might just love the choo choo a little too much to see this rationally.
...If that is the case then you and some of the others on the board here staunchly opposed to investments in passenger rail infrastructure of any kind may ideologically despise and hate "the choo choo" or anything "choo choo" related entirely too much to see this rationally.

Investing in our currently-lacking and wholly-inadequate passenger rail infrastructure is not some kind of frivolous expense, it is an increasingly important necessity in a fast-growing region in the Southeastern U.S. where continuing high rates of population growth threaten to outpace the amount of existing (and future) road infrastructure and overall transportation infrastructure that is available for use by the public, something that seems to have already happened in an Atlanta region whose population continues to grow at very-high rate despite a road infrastructure that virtually has not been expanded to keep up with a fast-growing population in the over 2 decades.

The freeway system cannot be expanded forever to keep up with the continued population growth in the I-85-anchored Southeastern/Piedmont region of the U.S., this is something that we have seen with the political build-out of the road network in the Atlanta region with the overwhelming public rejection of 3 roadbuilding-heavy transportation initiatives (the Outer Perimeter in the late 1990's, the Northern Arc in 2002, and the T-SPLOST in 2012).

The physical and political build-out of the road network in the Atlanta region and the pending build-out of the road network in other areas throughout the I-85-centered Atlanta-Washington Southeastern/Piedmont corridor makes investments in upgrades of passenger rail, a mode of transportation that can hold more people than freeways can hold vehicles, even all the more critically-important.

Though I do agree with the skeptics' concern about the use of severely-limited public funds to invest in passenger rail upgrades, that concern does not make the investment in the future of our transportation infrastructure any less necessary.

In fact, the very-legitimate concern of those skeptics over the use of very-limited public funds to invest in very-necessary passenger rail upgrades only underscores the critical need to utilize the immense amount of private funding that is available to make these very-necessary investments in public transportation infrastructure, both in the realm of roads and rail.
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Old 06-08-2013, 06:29 PM
 
93 posts, read 101,961 times
Reputation: 32
Quote:
Originally Posted by Born 2 Roll View Post
...To say that there would only be "some ridership" or "that there will not be enough ridership to justify the investment in HSR" is the equivalent of someone saying that there would is not enough automobile use on a superhighway network to justify the massive initial and ongoing expense of maintaining the road infrastructure of the I-85 right-of-way.

Or worse yet, saying that there would only be "some ridership" or "that there will not be enough ridership to justify the investment in HSR" is the equivalent of someone saying that there would not be enough people riding airplanes to justify the massive investments and ongoing expenses associated with maintaining the infrastructure needed for airplane travel.

...Saying that there would never be enough people traveling by airplane is something that a few highly-skeptical naysayers actually said when visionairies around the country like former Atlanta Mayor William Hartsfield were making moves to invest in the infrastructure needed to support airplane travel back in the pre-Korean War era before airplane travel became as overwhelmingly popular as it would eventually become and Atlanta went on to become the site of the busiest passenger airport on the entire planet.

If a visionary like William Hartsfield had succumbed to the naysayers then Atlanta (an international city with a metro population of 6.1 million and site of the world's busiest passenger airport) and its economy would look a lot more like a Birmingham (1.1 million metro pop. and an infinitely much smaller and much more insignifcant airport that only serves 3 million passengers each year as opposed to the 95 million passengers that the world-leading Atlanta Airport serves each year) than the rising international economic, cultural and entertainment powerhouse that Atlanta has become.

...Which going back in time and looking and becoming something like Birmingham is seemingly something that many of the anti-infrastructure investment and anti-planning for the future naysayers would actually prefer or like to see.
Highway infrastructure provides for freedom of movement for not only people, but also the goods that our economy was built on. Additionally, a highway connects to a grid of other highways and streets that make travel to every inch of the country possible. A HSR route to Charlotte simply gets one to Charlotte. At that point, you still need a car. The highway to HSR comparisons are foolish.

Again, you miss the boat. An airport allows a plane to take off and travel anywhere. A HSR route is massive investment on a fixed route between two places. Why put so many eggs in one basket? Airport expansion would allow for movement in multiple directions and fill multiple needs. A HSR route to Charlotte gets some people to Charlotte... and how many daily riders do you really expect to go to Charlotte? HSR to DC? How long would that take? How much would that cost? It would likely be as, if not more expensive than flying, and it would take significantly longer.


Quote:
...If that is the case then you and some of the others on the board here staunchly opposed to investments in passenger rail infrastructure of any kind may ideologically despise and hate "the choo choo" or anything "choo choo" related entirely too much to see this rationally.

Investing in our currently-lacking and wholly-inadequate passenger rail infrastructure is not some kind of frivolous expense, it is an increasingly important necessity in a fast-growing region in the Southeastern U.S. where continuing high rates of population growth threaten to outpace the amount of existing (and future) road infrastructure and overall transportation infrastructure that is available for use by the public, something that seems to have already happened in an Atlanta region whose population continues to grow at very-high rate despite a road infrastructure that virtually has not been expanded to keep up with a fast-growing population in the over 2 decades.

The freeway system cannot be expanded forever to keep up with the continued population growth in the I-85-anchored Southeastern/Piedmont region of the U.S., this is something that we have seen with the political build-out of the road network in the Atlanta region with the overwhelming public rejection of 3 roadbuilding-heavy transportation initiatives (the Outer Perimeter in the late 1990's, the Northern Arc in 2002, and the T-SPLOST in 2012).

The physical and political build-out of the road network in the Atlanta region and the pending build-out of the road network in other areas throughout the I-85-centered Atlanta-Washington Southeastern/Piedmont corridor makes investments in upgrades of passenger rail, a mode of transportation that can hold more people than freeways can hold vehicles, even all the more critically-important.

Though I do agree with the skeptics' concern about the use of severely-limited public funds to invest in passenger rail upgrades, that concern does not make the investment in the future of our transportation infrastructure any less necessary.

In fact, the very-legitimate concern of those skeptics over the use of very-limited public funds to invest in very-necessary passenger rail upgrades only underscores the critical need to utilize the immense amount of private funding that is available to make these very-necessary investments in public transportation infrastructure, both in the realm of roads and rail.
Choooo Choooooo!!!

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Old 06-08-2013, 09:31 PM
 
9,732 posts, read 9,628,869 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by #1MARTAFan View Post
Highway infrastructure provides for freedom of movement for not only people, but also the goods that our economy was built on.
...You mean that highway infrastructure provides for freedom of movement for people and the goods that our economy was built on by vehicle (automobile or truck) when that freedom of movement is not severely impeded by the (attempted) movements hundreds-of-thousands of other vehicles, as often can be the case within the Atlanta region and throughout the Atlanta-Washington corridor during peak hours.

Quote:
Originally Posted by #1MARTAFan View Post
Additionally, a highway connects to a grid of other highways and streets that make travel to every inch of the country possible.
...That is very true, but as is often the case in the Atlanta region, the grid of highways that a major highway may connect to are often undersized two-lane roads that are most-often directly lined with extensive established residential development and that cannot be expanded without great and sometimes excessive and prohibitive political cost.

Two-lane roads that carry a lot of local commuter traffic and that are lined with heavy existing mature and established residential development like Five Forks Trickum Road in Gwinnett or Lower Roswell and Old Canton Roads in East Cobb are the kinds of surface thoroughfares that might have 6 lanes in a Dallas or Houston but only have 2 lanes in Metro Atlanta.

These are examples of the types of busy thoroughfares that carry a lot of commuter traffic within a county that cannot be widened politically and makeup the grid of other highways that a major highway connects to.

Quote:
Originally Posted by #1MARTAFan View Post
A HSR route to Charlotte simply gets one to Charlotte. At that point, you still need a car.
...Just like one needs a car to move around in once they get to Charlotte are any other city when they fly as evidenced by the very-large numbers of rental car companies that are located at airports with commercial airline flights.

Though under the vastly-improved transportation regime in which high-speed rail transit would operate, one would also be able to use a cab or local shuttle depending on the locale.

One also much keep-in-mind that the HSR project in question is not only to connect the two cities of Atlanta and nothing beyond or in-between as Charlotte would only be but one of many points of significance served by high-speed rail service in a very fast-growing corridor of rising importance between Atlanta and Washington DC and even beyond into the Northeast to Philly, NYC and Boston.

The fixation on Charlotte as the only point that would be served or be an origination or destination point for Atlantans when high-speed passenger rail service is implemented between Charlotte and Atlanta is a intentional gross distortion of the issue by the ideologically-driven opponents of rail transit who purposefully ignore the fact that multiple points of significance between Atlanta and Charlotte would be served with stops on the future HSR line.

The multiple points of significance that would be served by HSR between Atlanta and Charlotte would be:

...Doraville, where an existing MARTA heavy rail station is slated to eventually be converted to a multimodal passenger station that serves two regional heavy rail lines (the future I-285 regional heavy rail line that runs between Acworth in Cobb County and Buford in Gwinnett County; and a regional heavy rail line that operates between the Atlanta Airport and Downtown Gainesville); a regional commuter rail line that operates between the Atlanta Airport and Clemson University in Clemson, SC; a regional interurban line that operates between the Atlanta Airport and Greer, SC (site of the fast-growing Greenville-Spartanburg Airport) and the aforementioned interstate HSR line that operates between the Atlanta Airport and New York City by way of Philly, Baltimore, Washington DC, Richmond, Raleigh, Durham, Greensboro, Charlotte, Spartanburg, Greenville, Clemson, etc.

...Suwanee, where the city is developing a town center area around the site of a future multimodal passenger rail station.

...Gainesville, site of an existing train station on the Amtrak Crescent; the center of business and commerce in mountainous Northeast Georgia, a scenic area that is poised for much continued growth as the exurban and outer suburban sprawl of Atlanta continues to creep out towards the mountains; home of Brenau University; and home of Northeast Georgia Medical Center, a major hospital in Northeastern Georgia.

...Toccoa, home of Toccoa Falls College and site of an existing train station on the Amtrak Crescent.

...Clemson, SC; site of an existing train station on the Amtrak Crescent and a popular college town that is the home of football-crazed Atlantic Coast Conference member and big-time college sports power Clemson University.

...Downtown Greenville, SC; site of an existing train station on the Amtrak Crescent and a very fast-growing industrial city that is on the rise in the South Carolina Upstate that is home to a growing number of international corporations including BMW which has a car factory that is the largest car factory in North America located here, and Michelin which has 6 factories and a research & development center located here; Greenville is also home to a large and growing revitalized village-like downtown that is rising in popularity with tourists; Greenville is also home to three universities in Furman University, North Greenville University and the once-infamous Bob Jones University.

...Greer, SC; a very fast-growing industrial city that is located roughly halfway between Greenville and Spartanburg and is the site of the fast-growing Greenville-Spartanburg Airport (an airport that has often been cited as a candidate to a become a future reliever airport to Atlanta's world-leading ultra high-capacity Hartsfield-Jackson with a high-speed passenger rail link); BMW has extensive operations here.

...Spartanburg, SC; a growing industrial city that is the site of an existing train station on the Amtrak Crescent; Spartanburg is home to Wofford College and the headquarters of the Southern Conference, an athletic conference of prestigious Southeastern schools that gave birth to the football-dominating Southeastern Conference and the historically basketball-dominating Atlantic Coast Conference.

...Gastonia, NC; a large post-industrial city west of Charlotte along I-85 that is the site of an existing train station on the Amtrak Crescent.

Quote:
Originally Posted by #1MARTAFan View Post
The highway to HSR comparisons are foolish.
...That is not true. The highway to HSR comparisons are quite valid as most of the HSR corridors in question often run directly parallel to major highways that are very-busy transcontinental travel and shipping routes and have limited roadway capacity.

Like with the Atlanta-Charlotte segment of the Atlanta-Washington Southeastern high-speed rail corridor that will run directly parallel to the extremely-busy major transcontinental travel and shipping route that is Interstate 85, a roadway that has limited roadway capacity despite multiple recent expansions through the Atlanta, Greenville-Spartanburg, Charlotte, Greensboro and Durham areas.

Quote:
Originally Posted by #1MARTAFan View Post
Again, you miss the boat. An airport allows a plane to take off and travel anywhere.
...Although one could theoretically travel anywhere from an airport, particularly if one has their own airplane, the overwhelming bulk of travel from airports occurs on large jetliners between metro areas of 100,000 people or more.

Quote:
Originally Posted by #1MARTAFan View Post
A HSR route is massive investment on a fixed route between two places.
...HSR routes are investments on fixed routes in corridors where there are movements of very-large numbers of people as evidenced by the traffic patterns and traffic counts on the major transcontinental roadways that HSR routes often run parallel to.

Like how the most likeliest site of future HSR service, the Norfolk Southern line runs parallel to the busy transcontinent route of I-85 and carries an existing interstate passenger train in the Amtrak Crescent that is supposedly one of the busiest and most-popular passenger rail lines in the Amtrak network outside of the Northeast Corridor.

Quote:
Originally Posted by #1MARTAFan View Post
Why put so many eggs in one basket?
...You mean why take a few eggs out of a basket in highway investment that is overflowing with eggs and put them into a totally empty basket in passenger rail travel?

Despite increasingly severe traffic congestion in the road-constrained Atlanta region, the State of Georgia has invested virtually nothing in passenger rail travel to provide an alternative or even relief to a crowded, overcapacity and often gridlocked politically-constrained and undersized road network.

Quote:
Originally Posted by #1MARTAFan View Post
Airport expansion would allow for movement in multiple directions and fill multiple needs.
...Major airports along the I-85 Corridor are already undergoing continuous expansions on a large-scale (particularly major airports in Raleigh-Durham, Greensboro, Charlotte, Greenville-Spartanburg and, ESPECIALLY, in Atlanta).

But one has to be able to commute and travel the intermediate distance to the airport before they fly-out and move in multiple directions as it is not necessarily all that possible to fly-out from a Clemson, or a Toccoa, or a Gainesville, or a Buford or a Suwanee, etc, where either there are no immediate local airports to fly out of or the airport is so small that the only people who can fly in and out are people with small private jets.

Just like there has to be some form of first-mile and last-mile connectivity between trains and originations and destinations (home, office, lodging, college, etc), there also has to be a diversification and an increase of intermediate "first-mile" and "last-mile connectivity of sorts between originations and destinations and major airports.

High-speed rail (local and regional) is an excellent way to provide the missing mode of transportation link over intermediate distances between a major airport and an ultimate origination and/or destination.

Last edited by Born 2 Roll; 06-08-2013 at 09:44 PM..
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Old 06-08-2013, 10:44 PM
 
9,732 posts, read 9,628,869 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by #1MARTAFan View Post
A HSR route to Charlotte gets some people to Charlotte
An HSR route to Charlotte does more than just gets some people to Charlotte.

An HSR route to Charlotte gets people to and from the intermediate stops between Atlanta and Charlotte (points like Gainesville, Toccoa, Clemson, Greenville, Greer/GSP Airport, Spartanburg and Gastonia) and beyond.

That's because Atlanta and Charlotte will not be the only two stops on the train line and the train line will extend beyond Charlotte to Greensboro, Durham, Raleigh, Richmond and DC Union Station.

All of those intermediate stops between major stops in Atlanta and Charlotte and Greensboro and Raleigh, etc, will generate riders who will be using the train for trips of various lengths (some trips shorter, some trips longer, etc)
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Old 06-10-2013, 09:42 AM
 
Location: Crooklyn, New York
30,714 posts, read 31,946,473 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by #1MARTAFan View Post
You are missing the point. I don't think anyone is seriously saying that no one would ride a train. There would be some ridership. The point that you can't seem to comprehend is that there will not be enough ridership to justify the massive initial and ongoing expense associated with rail , let alone HSR.
"That's a Bingo!"
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Old 06-10-2013, 05:19 PM
 
93 posts, read 101,961 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Born 2 Roll View Post
An HSR route to Charlotte does more than just gets some people to Charlotte.

An HSR route to Charlotte gets people to and from the intermediate stops between Atlanta and Charlotte (points like Gainesville, Toccoa, Clemson, Greenville, Greer/GSP Airport, Spartanburg and Gastonia) and beyond.

That's because Atlanta and Charlotte will not be the only two stops on the train line and the train line will extend beyond Charlotte to Greensboro, Durham, Raleigh, Richmond and DC Union Station.

All of those intermediate stops between major stops in Atlanta and Charlotte and Greensboro and Raleigh, etc, will generate riders who will be using the train for trips of various lengths (some trips shorter, some trips longer, etc)
Well, you've convinced me. We could finally have that much needed multi-billion HSR link to Toccoa and Clemson.

Those 12 people per day who use the existing Amtrak service certainly justify upgrading Toccoa to HSR. Add to it the 15 people per day from Clemson and you are really on to something.

Very persuasive.

*Actual numbers taken from Amtrak's ridership numbers.
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Old 06-10-2013, 06:52 PM
 
3,823 posts, read 3,979,844 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by #1MARTAFan View Post
Well, you've convinced me. We could finally have that much needed multi-billion HSR link to Toccoa and Clemson.

Those 12 people per day who use the existing Amtrak service certainly justify upgrading Toccoa to HSR. Add to it the 15 people per day from Clemson and you are really on to something.

Very persuasive.

*Actual numbers taken from Amtrak's ridership numbers.
Ok, I get your point, DOT should wait until the I-85 corridor is prime for transit versus proactive planning for the future. Arguably, the fastest growing corridor in the country. Like many other infrastructure projects, let's beotch and moan about the project being 20-30 years late and the billions of dollars wasted due to a lack of vision (future labor cost, cost of materials, etc). Nothing like planning for 2020 in 2030....makes sense.
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Old 06-10-2013, 07:10 PM
 
93 posts, read 101,961 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Big Aristotle View Post
Ok, I get your point, DOT should wait until the I-85 corridor is prime for transit versus proactive planning for the future. Arguably, the fastest growing corridor in the country. Like many other infrastructure projects, let's beotch and moan about the project being 20-30 years late and the billions of dollars wasted due to a lack of vision (future labor cost, cost of materials, etc). Nothing like planning for 2020 in 2030....makes sense.
We should spend billions of dollars on a system that doesn't have the demand to make it a worthwhile investment. What are you taxing to pay for the system? Using a very, very conservative estimate of $40 million per mile of construction cost, where do you come up with the $10 billion to pay for a 250 mile route to Charlotte? What if it costs $82 million per mile as other systems have cost? Where do you come up with $21 billion at that point?

$10-21 billion is a lot of money... but those 12 riders from Toccoa might double to a very satisfied 24 riders which would make it all worthwhile, right? Heck... the train might transform Toccoa into the next hugely popular technology hub, right?
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