Hearings planned on potential Atlanta-Charlotte rail line (Gainesville, Toccoa: renting, attorneys)

[jsvh]

Originally Posted by BajanYankee

You're not helping your case here.

Can we agree to disagree? I think there is enough evidence to support further planing of Atlanta rail connections, you do not. Can we move on? You don't get to have all the fun to yourself up there in New York ya know. We like to do good things for our city too.

[BajanYankee]

Originally Posted by jsvh

Can we agree to disagree? I think there is enough evidence to support further planing of Atlanta rail connections, you do not. Can we move on? You don't get to have all the fun to yourself up there in New York ya know. We like to do good things for our city too.

It's not about "fun." Transit is not meant to be fun. It's meant to be useful. Spending billions of dollars for 200 people to travel between Atlanta and Charlotte every day is just a bad idea. It's not useful. And it's a huge waste of my tax dollars. Atlanta and Charlotte don't even come close to making the list of the busiest train stations in the country. The demand just isn't there.

[jsvh]

Originally Posted by BajanYankee

It's not about "fun." Transit is not meant to be fun. It's meant to be useful. Spending billions of dollars for 200 people to travel between Atlanta and Charlotte every day is just a bad idea. It's not useful. And it's a huge waste of my tax dollars. Atlanta and Charlotte don't even come close to making the list of the busiest train stations in the country. The demand just isn't there.

I'll take that as a "no". LOL.

[MattCW]

Originally Posted by BajanYankee

It's not about "fun." Transit is not meant to be fun. It's meant to be useful. Spending billions of dollars for 200 people to travel between Atlanta and Charlotte every day is just a bad idea. It's not useful. And it's a huge waste of my tax dollars. Atlanta and Charlotte don't even come close to making the list of the busiest train stations in the country. The demand just isn't there.

The bolded part is irrelevant because one station sees two trains per day, and the other only seven trains per day. If New York Penn Station only saw 6 trains per day (with service everywhere else being the same) it wouldn't come close to making the list of the busiest train stations either. Trying to take an effect, and turn it into a cause, especially one so transparent, only hurts your arguments, and makes you lest likely to be trusted with your data in the future.

[BajanYankee]

Originally Posted by MattCW

The bolded part is irrelevant because one station sees two trains per day, and the other only six trains per day. If New York Penn Station only saw 6 trains per day (with service everywhere else being the same) it wouldn't come close to making the list of the busiest train stations either. Trying to take an effect, and turn it into a cause, especially one so transparent, only hurts your arguments, and makes you lest likely to be trusted with your data in the future.

Penn Station sees more than six trains per day because NYC is a metropolitan area of 22 million and is surrounded by a metro area of 6.5 million just two hours south, a metro area of 2.5 million 3.5 hours south and a metro area of 5.5 million 4 hours south. Not to mention an MSA of 4.5 million people 4 hours to the north (and various towns of high density in New England).

That's why Penn Station has so many trains leaving every day. If Atlanta had more trains leaving per day, they'd just be empty, and it would just increase Amtrak's burdens (as if it isn't burdened enough already). The whole "if you build it, they will come" thing just isn't true.

[BajanYankee]

Originally Posted by jsvh

I'll take that as a "no". LOL.

Actually, my estimate may have been way too high. Peachtree Station saw 104,854 passengers in 2012. That averages out to 287 passengers per day. Assuming that a fair number of them are traveling onto Raleigh, Richmond or DC, it's safe to assume that maybe 40 of those people are making their way to Charlotte. Even that figure may actually be highballing it.

[Born 2 Roll]

Originally Posted by BajanYankee

I don't think that necessarily translates into demand for train travel though.

If the demand for travel between Charlotte and Atlanta becomes that great, one simple alternative to HSR is to have air shuttle service between ATL and CDG every half hour. That should be easy to do in Atlanta since Delta is based there.

Delta Shuttle

I honestly see this type of service going into effect before HSR between Charlotte and Atlanta. Do you think there's strong demand for flights leaving every 30 minutes between the two cities now? If not, then how does that affect your view of a potential HSR line?

Originally Posted by MathmanMathman

^Not only is Delta's hub in Atlanta, US Airways has a major hub in Charlotte. They can do the flight in an hour without our having to spend billions and billions for new infrastructure. Carl Sagan would be useful right now to illustrate the cost...Billions...and Billions.

...But with the air shuttle approach you are forgetting the fast-growing populated area BETWEEN Atlanta and Charlotte that is already served by the Amtrak Crescent (cities that already have Amtrak stations like Gainesville, Toccoa, Clemson, Greenville, Spartanburg and even Gastonia).

The South Carolina Upstate (or Upcountry) is an area of over 1 million people that is centered on the very fast-growing international industrial city of Greenville, SC and its fast-growing airport, Greenville-Spartanburg International Airport (GSP).

...Greenville is an international industrial city because there is a growing presence of international/multi-national corporations in the city and surrounding area because of the low cost of doing business in the state of South Carolina.

Some of the multi-national corporations with a significant presence and extensive operations in the South Carolina Upstate include BMW (which has the largest car factory in the U.S. located in Greer, SC near GSP Airport) and Michelin (which has 5 tire factories and an research & development facility located in the South Carolina Upstate).
Upstate South Carolina - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Because it is a fast-growing area of over 1 million people with an increasing presence of international and multi-national corporations, the South Carolina Upstate is not an area that can or should be overlooked in this discussion about increasing logistical connectivity between Washington DC and Atlanta via Charlotte by way of high-speed rail.

Which also underscores the problem with the way that the federal government is going about this process with this wide-ranging approach with hearings all over the place and the unnecessary consideration of so many other lines, the way that the Feds are going about this has, naturally, added entirely too much unnecessary time and expense to this process.

This should not be a process to figure out which existing rail line is best for a high-speed rail connection between Atlanta and Charlotte when the rail right-of-way with the most population density and the most points of interest and most points of importance lie along the Norfolk Southern rail right-of-way along which a very-popular existing Amtrak line (the Crescent) already operates between New York and New Orleans.

Expending all of this time, money and energy to unnecessarily study a half-dozen or more other corridors is completely asinine.

This SHOULD only be a straightforward process to simply upgrade the trackage of the existing Amtrak Crescent line to support higher train speeds and increased future operations for both passenger and freight trains as needed.

[Prytania]

Originally Posted by BajanYankee

England has way more density than the I-85 corridor.

England (yes, the whole entire country) is 260,558 sq. miles with a density of 1,054 ppsm.

The Atlanta metro area is 8,376 sq. miles with a density of 630 ppsm.

How are these two places comparable?

I can assure you that there are rail stops in areas with very few people. England's population is skewed because so few people live in the rural areas yet the trains run through those areas and stop.

And this is not only regarding Atlanta but Charlotte and all points between.

[BajanYankee]

Originally Posted by Born 2 Roll

Because it is a fast-growing area of over 1 million people with an increasing presence of international and multi-national corporations, the South Carolina Upstate is not an area that can or should be overlooked in this discussion about increasing logistical connectivity between Washington DC and Atlanta via Charlotte by way of high-speed rail.

Okay, is there any serious argument for building HSR between Atlanta and Charlotte? Who are the people who desperately need these connections? Where's the demand for such rail service? Where is the density to support it? As I just demonstrated above, the Atlanta metro has a population density lower than the entire UK's. And one million people is 635,000 less people than what you'd find in Philadelphia, which is only 135 sq. miles.

So where are the riders going to come from?

[Born 2 Roll]

Originally Posted by kferq

In terms of driving time, it depends. You can get there in less than 4 if you are lucky and drive straight through. If you hit the Atlanta suburbs at the wrong time, it can add a hour on the trip. The idea that Southern highways are wide open no longer applies on the highly industrial I-85 corridor. The traffic between here and Charlotte is growing rapidly and there are some bottlenecks through South Carolina as well. The truck traffic is very heavy, often slows you down, and it sometimes makes for an unpleasant ride.

In terms of demand for an endpoint, you are right that much of that traffic makes connections at the airports. With the high speed rail planned to have a station at the Atlanta airport, it would be possible to make the first leg of the flight by train. However, there are a large number of business connections based on regional headquarters. Atlanta is a much bigger endpoint than Charlotte and good rail connections to Raleigh and The Research Triangle from Charlotte will help drive demand for Atlantans to travel on the route.

Also it is important to realize that most Amtrak traffic does not ride end to end of the line. The intermediate stations account for a lot of the traffic, often because they do not have good air service.

...Excellent points.