I think this infograph proves Atlanta needs to step up... (Alpharetta: fit in, living in)

[BajanYankee]

Originally Posted by jsvh

It makes relocating to the streetcar connected neighborhood and away from a highway commute more appealing. Easy access to work is one of the main considerations and drivers of moving. But yes, I agree that tolls and existing transit improvements could yield more cost effective solutions to certain issues.

But only so many people are going to do that. My brother and his wife are not going to sell their house, pull their kids out of their school, and move in town so they can be near a streetcar line. It's primarily the young and unattached that would be willing to do that, and as hard as it may be for you to believe, many of them don't get excited about streetcars. There are other things people value above streetcars such as ease of commute, neighborhood vibe, housing costs, etc. You have to think of the Metro area as a whole instead of a niche market of urbanists who have a preference for a particular mode of transit.

[Gulch]

Originally Posted by BajanYankee

But how will people riding streetcars in the city alleviate traffic on I-285, 75, 85 and 20?

Wouldn't a simpler, faster and more cost-effective solution be...

(1) tolls; and
(2) bus and existing subway improvement?

1. Tolls won't ever be implemented on non-tolled Interstate highways anytime soon except with separate managed lanes.
2. To build the network Atlanta needs to alleviate congestion would cost tens of billions of dollars (at an average of $150-200 million/mile), and buses won't do the trick alone.

[alco89]

Originally Posted by BajanYankee

But only so many people are going to do that. My brother and his wife are not going to sell their house, pull their kids out of their school, and move in town so they can be near a streetcar line. It's primarily the young and unattached that would be willing to do that, and as hard as it may be for you to believe, many of them don't get excited about streetcars. There are other things people value above streetcars such as ease of commute, neighborhood vibe, housing costs, etc. You have to think of the Metro area as a whole instead of a niche market of urbanists who have a preference for a particular mode of transit.

We tried that already, and guess what happened....

[cqholt]

It makes relocating to the streetcar connected neighborhood and away from a highway commute more appealing. Easy access to work is one of the main considerations and drivers of moving. But yes, I agree that tolls and existing transit improvements could yield more cost effective solutions to certain issues.

Boom!

But only so many people are going to do that. My brother and his wife are not going to sell their house, pull their kids out of their school, and move in town so they can be near a streetcar line. It's primarily the young and unattached that would be willing to do that, and as hard as it may be for you to believe, many of them don't get excited about streetcars. There are other things people value above streetcars such as ease of commute, neighborhood vibe, housing costs, etc. You have to think of the Metro area as a whole instead of a niche market of urbanists who have a preference for a particular mode of transit.

It will attract those who are new to the area or are not tied down yet. It is not a niche, it was been a proven technology in decades past. Many of the old intown neighborhoods were developed as streetcar suburbs.

[jsvh]

Originally Posted by BajanYankee

But only so many people are going to do that. My brother and his wife are not going to sell their house, pull their kids out of their school, and move in town so they can be near a streetcar line. It's primarily the young and unattached that would be willing to do that, and as hard as it may be for you to believe, many of them don't get excited about streetcars. There are other things people value above streetcars such as ease of commute, neighborhood vibe, housing costs, etc. You have to think of the Metro area as a whole instead of a niche market of urbanists who have a preference for a particular mode of transit.

Of course not everyone is going to drop everything and move in town because they built a streetcar line. But it is all part of the larger effort that tolls and improving heavy rail and bus service are a part of to provide options to commuters.

[BajanYankee]

Originally Posted by alco89

We tried that already, and guess what happened....

So the reverse--putting the interests of a niche market of urbanists over the millions in the metro area--is preferable?

A streetcar network is very expensive and only addresses the transit needs of a relatively small number of people. People can't park and ride a streetcar the same way they can heavy rail or light rail. The streetcar is performing the same exact function of the bus, and as you can see, nobody is driving into cities to park and board buses serving local routes.

Tolls, on the other hand, can have an appreciable impact on nearly all Metro area commuters. And they do a lot more in terms of reducing emissions than transit would. And they obviously generate much needed revenue for jurisdictions.

[MattCW]

Originally Posted by BajanYankee

But how will people riding streetcars in the city alleviate traffic on I-285, 75, 85 and 20?

It's called last-mile connectivity. They aren't going to jump on a train to downtown, if they can't move around downtown.

Wouldn't a simpler, faster and more cost-effective solution be...

(1) tolls; and
(2) bus and existing subway improvement?

You have been against extending MARTA rail in any way before. Why are you suddenly for "existing subway improvement?"

[BajanYankee]

Originally Posted by cqholt

It will attract those who are new to the area or are not tied down yet. It is not a niche, it was been a proven technology in decades past. Many of the old intown neighborhoods were developed as streetcar suburbs.

It is niche. Most people are not urbanists and many urbanists do not fawn over streetcars the way you do. I, for example, enjoy living in cities but have no preference whatsoever between a bus and a streetcar. I'm only interested in what gets me where I need to go the fastest and at the lowest possible cost.

And the past has nothing to do with 2013. Building out an entire streetcar network is pointless since it's not providing any new connections. The connections already exist; in most cases, they're served by just buses. And it's ridiculously expensive. It's basically "status" transit the same way a Mercedes Benz is status transit. The only difference is that the overwhelming majority of people care much more about the status associated with their personal vehicle than they do the public transit they are riding.

Too much emphasis is placed, imo, on the mode of transit and not the quality of the system as a whole. Some people think that the mode necessarily enhances the quality of the system, but I don't think that's true. There are certainly some people who would not ride a bus because they think it's low class or whatever, but many people simply won't ride a bus because it doesn't do what they need it to do. If transit agencies simplified bus maps, reduced the number of stops, built improved, covered stops and other infrastructure, and increased the frequency of buses, then more people would start riding them.

They could do all of that without really spending that much money. Would it be as cool as having a streetcar? Probably not. But you'd be much closer to having a world-class transportation system.

[kferq]

Originally Posted by BajanYankee

So the reverse--putting the interests of a niche market of urbanists over the millions in the metro area--is preferable?

A streetcar network is very expensive and only addresses the transit needs of a relatively small number of people. People can't park and ride a streetcar the same way they can heavy rail or light rail. The streetcar is performing the same exact function of the bus, and as you can see, nobody is driving into cities to park and board buses serving local routes.

Tolls, on the other hand, can have an appreciable impact on nearly all Metro area commuters. And they do a lot more in terms of reducing emissions than transit would. And they obviously generate much needed revenue for jurisdictions.

Because we live in an urban area, we are suddenly a "niche market" and not full citizens like the rest of the state? Despite being one of the major hubs of economic development with > 5% job growth over the last 2 years, we are not worthy of investment by the people who spend our state tax money? And somehow you believe that we should not even allowed to spend our money building something we want? The TSPLOST passed inside the city limits! Remember, the streetcar currently is being funded by City of Atlanta funds, matching federal funds and by the Beltline TAD. No state money, no suburban money. People do ride heavy rail into cities and take light rail/street car networks to their final destination and people who live in the areas served by the light rail/street car network car reach the heavy rail. It feed out existing network and leverages the existing investment.

I have nothing against tolls except they slow you down. Raising the gas tax seems more efficient to me, but if voters want tolls I will support them..

[BajanYankee]

Originally Posted by MattCW

It's called last-mile connectivity. They aren't going to jump on a train to downtown, if they can't move around downtown.

You missed my point. If my brother is commuting from Stone Mountain to Alpharetta, how are a few streetcar lines improving his commute? There are a lot of people in Metro Atlanta that have commutes just like that.

Originally Posted by MattCW

You have been against extending MARTA rail in any way before. Why are you suddenly for "existing subway improvement?"

Because MARTA rail is already there. And it's had all types of service and funding issues in the past. As a practical matter, the priority, imo, should be on improving what you already have rather than rushing off to build more transit that will also be underfunded and underutilized.