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Old 09-29-2013, 09:31 AM
 
Location: Atlanta, GA..don't go to GSU
1,110 posts, read 1,653,929 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MattCW View Post
Don't forget that Georgia pushes everyone to take the SAT while it's selective in the northern states. So they're only comparing their higher-end students anyways, while we compare everyone.
Well yeah...but


What is the average high school graduation/college graduation/college matriculation rate/% of those who hold above a Bach degree in the South vs the North and West?

We need it, they don't.
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Old 09-30-2013, 02:20 PM
 
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Speaking for the northeast- SATs are usually the only test kids take. Very few take the ACT. They also take SAT 2 subject courses and the all important AP tests scores. The more AP classes with scores of at least 4, if not a 5, show selective colleges how students did in actually learning (at least for the test), the material. This puts a lot of pressure on students to take as many AP classes as possible and score high. It also gives southern states a bit of an advantage because they start school much earlier than the northeastern (after Labor Day) schools and are able to get the material in before the early May test dates.
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Old 10-05-2013, 08:12 AM
 
Location: Atlanta, GA..don't go to GSU
1,110 posts, read 1,653,929 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by roxyrn View Post
Speaking for the northeast- SATs are usually the only test kids take. Very few take the ACT. They also take SAT 2 subject courses and the all important AP tests scores. The more AP classes with scores of at least 4, if not a 5, show selective colleges how students did in actually learning (at least for the test), the material. This puts a lot of pressure on students to take as many AP classes as possible and score high. It also gives southern states a bit of an advantage because they start school much earlier than the northeastern (after Labor Day) schools and are able to get the material in before the early May test dates.
Biased opinion.

Most institutions don't even consider SAT II. What is an important AP test score? Fail.
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Old 10-07-2013, 05:29 AM
 
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GPA is not a standard number and is no longer as easy to compare as it once was. My daughter recently graduated from high school and some colleges asked for her "weighted" GPA, some asked for the "Un-weighted GPA" and of course, there was the totally stripped down "Hope GPA" (which does not give any extra points for any classes other than AP or IB and even then an A does not get any extra points at all compared to an A in an on-level course).

Private schools have some discretion to establish their own weighting system thus making their over-all GPA look even more competitive.

I am sure that the SAT has it's flaws when used to compare students, but it is less variable than the GPA(s).
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Old 10-07-2013, 05:57 AM
 
Location: Atlanta, GA
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Georgia requires a 70% to pass. Does this put our students at a disadvantage?

http://www.gadoe.org/External-Affair...60-4-2-.13.pdf
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Old 10-09-2013, 08:48 AM
 
16,212 posts, read 10,753,718 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GeorgiaLakeSearch View Post
Georgia requires a 70% to pass. Does this put our students at a disadvantage?

http://www.gadoe.org/External-Affair...60-4-2-.13.pdf

I don't think it puts our students at a disadvantage per se. Years ago you could "pass" with a D or a 60% in many schools so GA having a 70% is better than it used to be.

Also, what is really the difference between say a 75% or a 70%. Not much of a difference IMO.

I will say though, that I personally feel all students should maintain a minimum of 80% in all subjects since that would make them proficient on paper and that writing, reading, math, and science should have minimums of 80%. At my kid's school, the children have to maintain an 80% but it basically is a "no fail" sort of school because the student will maintain an 80% even if they have to re-do a lesson/chapter in a particular subject. I know some have had to re-do a math chapter for instance because they got a 75% and that is not considered to have mastered enough of the material to move on as the child may fall behind due to not mastering previous concepts so they will have to review lessons until they get to 80% to show that they fully know the material.

This is becoming a trend in many schools.

Quote:
Originally Posted by lastminutemom View Post
That may be the case, but for now, the SAT (or ACT) is an important tool used in college evaluations.

There is simply no clear way for colleges to evaluate the transcripts of 10s of thousands of applicants (yes some schools get that many) and know for certain that the rigor of the courses are the same.

As some one who has been very active in DeKalb, for example, I can tell you that there are students coming out of Lakeside high school with a 3.0 average who are far better students and have worked harder than students with a 3.5 from say Towers or McNair. The SAT score can tell a picture.

What has changed, over the years, is this. When I applied to college back in the dark ages (30 years ago or so), a student with an "eh" GPA and good to great SAT/ACT scores could get into many competitive colleges. Not so much today. Colleges have figured out that an "eh" GPA and high test scores often indicates a slacker.

As to the point about Harvard, they may look at GPA first, but trust me they are still looking at test scores. From their own data, the middle 50 percent of applicant who were accepted and attending had scores in SAT reading between 690-790 and Math 700-800. 800 is a perfect score. This means that the upper 25 of accepted students had perfect scores. Writing had the same range as Reading. So, they can say it doesn't matter, but it does. (For the record, 91 percent had GPAs above 3.75. Smart kids.

A great tool to use when researching colleges is their own data -- simply google Common Data Set and the colleges name and you should get several years worth of data on any school. They are required to have the data.
I spoke at length with the Harvard rep who stated that they do look for top talent but that they primarily want the top 10% of youth in their graduating class. My cousin actually does go to a low performing south DeKalb high school. But was in the Challenge program in APS for gifted students through 8th grade so was taught 1-2 grade levels above the regular students. They advised him to strive for the top 5% and to seek extra curricular activities and other community involvement in order to give him an edge in admission. On a whim, I just looked up Harvard's admission information and this is straight from their website:

Quote:

Applicants can distinguish themselves for admission in a number of ways. Some
show unusual academic promise through experience or achievements in study or
research. Many are "well rounded" and have contributed in various ways to the
lives of their schools or communities. Others are "well lopsided" with
demonstrated excellence in a particular endeavor—academic, extracurricular or
otherwise. Still others bring perspectives formed by unusual personal
circumstances or experiences.


Academic accomplishment in high school is important, but we also seek people
with enthusiasm, creativity and strength of character.


Most admitted students rank in the top 10–15 percent of their graduating
classes, having taken the most rigorous secondary school curriculum available to
them.
Bolds added by me. My little cousin really is aiming for Harvard so we took up their admission rep's time and got some great information from them. Even though their students do have a high SAT average, that doesn't mean that they focus on SAT moreso than other areas.

From their FAQs on testing:



Quote:

Harvard does not have clearly defined, required minimum scores; however, the
majority of students admitted to the College represent a range of scores from
roughly 600 to 800 on each section of the SAT Reasoning Test as well as on the
SAT Subject Tests. We regard test results as helpful indicators of academic
ability and achievement when considered thoughtfully among many other factors.
Bolds again added by me. And of course Harvard, which is a highly esteemed and historied institution would have very high averages for SAT scores. Many times students will be intimidated by the reputation of Harvard who are average students and they wouldn't even apply so Harvard by means of its history and reputation will garner interest from the best of the best. The best students from the world will apply and test in order to get in and of course they have high test scores. I personally, from interacting with the admission staff, do not feel that they would not consider a highly ambitious student with great GPAs, who is an excellent writer and submits essays that engaging, focused and well written, and who may have their own business or be heavily involved in a community cause over some one who got a perfect score on an SAT and is in the top 10% of their class. Another kid who is in the top 5% but scores in the 80th percentile on SAT with all the above additional qualities I mentioned, would more than likely get more of a look than the super smart, high testing kid.

Also, the portion I bolded above regarding admission - "Most admitted students rank in the top 10–15 percent of their graduating classes, having taken the most rigorous secondary school curriculum available to them" is important to consider. Just because someone had the opportunity to take more "rigorous" classes due to being in a particular school does not negate that another child in a not as highly rated high school didn't take the most "rigorous" classes that they could. For the scenario you mentioned above, if the student at McNair took AP or IB classes if offered and that was the best they could do, then a school like Harvard or another top school would not deem that child, just because they went to McNair, as less qualified than a child who went to Wheeler who also took AP because at McNair, that was the best that the student could do to prepare him/her self. It is also important to note that they mentioned "character." As that is what I got out of my exchange with their admission rep, that they seek students who are motivated and driven to excel academically and in other aspects of life. Like I mentioned above, many students at under performing schools face many more obstacles but they still stay on the right path and filter through those obstacles and stay focused, many without mom or dad constantly nagging them to do work, or reminding them about assignments, or being involved in their educations at all. They want it for themselves and top universities recognize this in the best and brightest students in underperforming schools and will give them the opportunity to be considered for admission.

I would also like to point out that many top schools, especially ivy leagues are rather diverse and diversity is not always race based or equal to "black" like many want to think that it is. It can be diversity from a regional location or an income demographic or from hardships or unique living situations that the student has had in his/her life and the best way to show off one's diversity is via essay writing.

On a side note, I am also exploring MBA programs for myself and oddly enough, I read that Harvard is actually doing away with seeing GMAT as a primary factor for admission for Harvard Business School as well. They are even placing less weight on letters of recommendation due to people hiring consultants to "help" them with MBA applications and testing programs and so they only had like 2-3 essay questions last year that were very open ended in order to get a real idea of what sort of students they admit and to filter through consultant responses. Though I do not want to go to Harvard Business School, I found it refreshing that they are doing this and many schools in both under grad and graduate level are utilizing these standardized tests less and less.
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Old 10-09-2013, 09:18 AM
 
7,112 posts, read 10,093,234 times
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^ A school like Harvard is looking for exceptional students who they perceive as "going places". That can include being well connected to the point that the student will probably hold influential positions later in life. I knew someone with a 1600 SAT and was turned down by Harvard. It also has to do with your character so a charismatic and smart Bill Clinton and Valedictorian Conan O'Brien can get in. Harvard wants those who they perceive as destined to make a mark in the world.

A school like Harvard can rely on past accomplishments and an interview so they can push standardized tests aside. But other schools can't spend that much time on each unremarkable candidate so standardized tests can help.
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Old 10-09-2013, 09:39 AM
 
3,972 posts, read 12,613,301 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MathmanMathman View Post
^ A school like Harvard is looking for exceptional students who they perceive as "going places". That can include being well connected to the point that the student will probably hold influential positions later in life. I knew someone with a 1600 SAT and was turned down by Harvard. It also has to do with your character so a charismatic and smart Bill Clinton and Valedictorian Conan O'Brien can get in. Harvard wants those who they perceive as destined to make a mark in the world.

A school like Harvard can rely on past accomplishments and an interview so they can push standardized tests aside. But other schools can't spend that much time on each unremarkable candidate so standardized tests can help.
This. The cousin may get in with lower than average test scores, but this will in part be because Harvard believes he and other applicants like him, have already beaten the odds and are on a path to go places. Harvard has to be clear that they are not only taking the top students, otherwise they would be questioned as to why the class is not made up of only those students who were valedictorian and had perfect test scores.

As I have watched who gets into Harvard and who doesn't, the description by Mathman holds very true. The students selected to attend are clearly going places.

This does not mean that those who are not selected are not -- in fact one Ivy admissions person told me that for every student they accept there are many more rejected who are just as qualified and able. It is just that there is limited space.
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Old 10-10-2013, 10:25 AM
 
16,212 posts, read 10,753,718 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MathmanMathman View Post
^ A school like Harvard is looking for exceptional students who they perceive as "going places". That can include being well connected to the point that the student will probably hold influential positions later in life. I knew someone with a 1600 SAT and was turned down by Harvard. It also has to do with your character so a charismatic and smart Bill Clinton and Valedictorian Conan O'Brien can get in. Harvard wants those who they perceive as destined to make a mark in the world.

A school like Harvard can rely on past accomplishments and an interview so they can push standardized tests aside. But other schools can't spend that much time on each unremarkable candidate so standardized tests can help.
This is basically what I got from the rep and what I was trying to express, you summed it up much better.

Also did want to mention, my little cousin is really an academic freak like I used to be and he already took the SAT as a part of a talent scouting program in middle school and he scored in the 90th percentile on it so the only thing that I feel would hold him back is attitude and determination. He is already smart but like you mentioned, you have to have the character and be charismatic and "going places" to really make an impression on a school like Harvard.
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