$59 Billion Plan For Region Could Improve Intown ATL (construction, to move)

[MattCW]

Originally Posted by jsvh

You got to give up trying to compare the streetcar to roads on "profitability" because roads are currently bringing in $0.

Are they? Would any business exist without a road? Doesn't that business contribute taxes which not only pay for the road, but pay for other things?

I say make them both 100% user funded. Drivers should be paying for roads like riders pay for transit.

If we're going to do that, we'll have to ensure that the people who don't use those pieces of infrastructure never receive any benefit from them. Just to be fair.

[toll_booth]

Originally Posted by MattCW

Are they? Would any business exist without a road? Doesn't that business contribute taxes which not only pay for the road, but pay for other things?

So do transit systems. Let's not forget that (1) the streetcar is going to be a selling point for the city's image, and (2) it could tie into the east Beltline, when they finally get a light rail line there.

[tikigod311]

The beltline will tie in with the Streetcar. To think of the Atlanta Streetcar as an independent transit system would not be realizing the whole plan.

[arjay57]

Originally Posted by jsvh

You got to give up trying to compare the streetcar to roads on "profitability" because roads are currently bringing in $0.

I don't understand that. Almost every business and resident in this 5.8 million person metropolis is located on a road.

The number located on a streetcar line, for the moment, is still zero. Even after the 2.7 mile line opens it will be minuscule compared to our road network.

[arjay57]

Originally Posted by MattCW

What do you propose they do to the roads? Most road infrastructure is "lay and forget" requiring only the occasional filling of potholes now and again plus traffic light maintenance, but the overall capacity is far less than for the streetcar, so any increase in traffic requires a disproportionate increase in funding in order to make the upgrades. The streetcar can be upgraded by simply adding another train car, or reducing the headways which incurs minimal increase in costs.

Why does a streetcar require a million dollars in maintenance per mile each year?

As to capacity, many busy urban streets carry 10,000 vehicles a day, and some carry many times that. How many folks do they anticipate will be riding this streetcar on a daily basis?

[Ant131531]

Originally Posted by arjay57

I don't understand that. Almost every business and resident in this 5.8 million person metropolis is located on a road.

The number located on a streetcar line, for the moment, is still zero. Even after the 2.7 mile line opens it will be minuscule compared to our road network.

You can say this about any city in the world....NYC, nearly every business is on a road...that doesn't mean that transit is not needed there. Terrible argument.

[Ant131531]

I'm so tired of the anti-transit attitude in this city. There's no wonder cities like Houston, Seattle and Dallas are sweeping past this city. Nothing can ever get done about anything without it being political. That's why Atlanta will never push that barrier that separates it from a truly world class metropolis(NYC, SF, LA, Chicago, etc).

[MattCW]

Originally Posted by arjay57

Why does a streetcar require a million dollars in maintenance per mile each year?

As to capacity, many busy urban streets carry 10,000 vehicles a day, and some carry many times that. How many folks do they anticipate will be riding this streetcar on a daily basis?

Because that's how much it costs. Atlanta is getting a bargain so far. Seattle's CentralLink costs about $3 Million per mile per year in O&M costs. DART costs over $7 Million per mile per year. That's just the cost of things.
As to ridership, the estimates say 2500, but given how well other systems have done, that's probably a bit low.

[WanderingImport]

Originally Posted by Ant131531

I'm so tired of the anti-transit attitude in this city. There's no wonder cities like Houston, Seattle and Dallas are sweeping past this city. Nothing can ever get done about anything without it being political. That's why Atlanta will never push that barrier that separates it from a truly world class metropolis(NYC, SF, LA, Chicago, etc).

I agree with you 100%. I can't tell you how many times I ride MARTA, look at the map inside the train and wonder how many ways each line could be expanded. Heck, there is a TON of room for a purple, black, brown, etc line ITP alone.

[Born 2 Roll]

Originally Posted by Ant131531

I'm so tired of the anti-transit attitude in this city. There's no wonder cities like Houston, Seattle and Dallas are sweeping past this city. Nothing can ever get done about anything without it being political. That's why Atlanta will never push that barrier that separates it from a truly world class metropolis(NYC, SF, LA, Chicago, etc).

Originally Posted by WanderingImport

I agree with you 100%. I can't tell you how many times I ride MARTA, look at the map inside the train and wonder how many ways each line could be expanded. Heck, there is a TON of room for a purple, black, brown, etc line ITP alone.

Don't feel bad about the lack of attention that transit has received in Metro Atlanta and in the state of Georgia.

With the state of Georgia being ranked 49th out of 50 states in per-capita transportation spending by many accounts, it's not just an anti-transit attitude that is prevalent in Metro Atlanta and Georgia, but it's an overall anti-transportation spending attitude that is prevalent in Georgia politics.

This prevalent and pervasive anti-transportation spending attitude is best reflected at the state level of governance where there has a been growing 'identity crisis' over the past couple of decades where Georgia's traditionally rural and outer suburban/exurban-dominated state government is totally dumbfounded on how to deal with the pressing multimodal transportation needs of a very-large and fast-growing metropolitan area.

If a transportation challenge needs and/or demands a complex and/or nuanced solution that doesn't involve the simple response of pouring new pavement to widen a road or build a new developmental highway through a sparsely-populated area in a far-flung rural part of the state, then Georgia's traditionally roadbuilding lobby-dominated state government often just simply does not seem to know how to respond to the challenge...

...Which is unfortunate because, obviously, not every transportation challenge can be solved by just simply pouring new pavement to expand existing roadways or build new roadways, particularly in a heavily-developed and heavily-populated metropolitan area where acquiring land to widen and build roads through areas of existing development comes with increasingly high financial and POLITICAL costs.