How other cities deal with the snow and ice on highways 2/12/14 (Atlanta: sales, 2014)

[arjay57]

Originally Posted by neil0311

Is it? Is the economic impact of schools and businesses closing and people panicking worth it? I don't know what it would cost to buy plow blades for pickup trucks and spreader attachments for dump trucks, but at some point is it less than the cost of closing the city for a week? Other cities deal with much worse than anything in Atlanta, and they do it routinely without the gnashing of teeth and wringing of hands.

I'm not one for taxes, but perhaps what's needed is a surcharge to allow the state and counties to buy new equipment. You can buy Fisher kits for pickup trucks for a couple of thousand dollars. The state and counties have pickup trucks and there are contractors who do as well. When storms are coming, you outfit the trucks with the necessary equipment and get them out on the road.

I'm not advocating that Atlanta becomes Chicago or Boston, but there must be a middle ground between dealing with a foot of snow routinely, and freaking out for week and closing down over 2 inches.

The airport has no excuse. They should not cancel a single flight in the type of weather we have here. They should have all the deicing and plowing equipment needed for a few inches of snow, sleet, or even a coating of ice.

Honestly I don't understand the panicking.

We have good access to public transit if needed and can work from home most of the time anyway. We've got a stout standby generator and 4 wheel drive vehicles (including a truck with a blade). We live intown and generally most major roads are passable.

So my experience has been that these storms are not all that disruptive.

Kids should stay home from school, in my opinion, if it's just our typical 2 or 3 days. There's just too much risk out on the icy roads and I don't think a few days here or there makes much difference in a kid's education.

I don't mind investing in some more trucks and plows, although the city has already beefed up its fleet somewhat.

[neil0311]

Originally Posted by arjay57

Honestly I don't understand the panicking.

We have good access to public transit if needed and can work from home most of the time anyway. We've got a stout standby generator and 4 wheel drive vehicles (including a truck with a blade). We live intown and generally most major roads are passable.

So my experience has been that these storms are not all that disruptive.

Kids should stay home from school, in my opinion, if it's just our typical 2 or 3 days. There's just too much risk out on the icy roads and I don't think a few days here or there makes much difference in a kid's education.

I don't mind investing in some more trucks and plows, although the city has already beefed up its fleet somewhat.

2 or 3 days multiplies when it happens 2 or 3 times each winter. They got time off for it being too cold, because we can't have kids waiting for a bus when it's 8 degrees outside. They got time off because it snowed 2 weeks ago. They got more time off this week. It all adds up. I hope they make it up and add days to the end of the school year like we did in Massachusetts (where we had fewer days off for snow).

Same is true for business. There was absolutely no reason for everyone to close on Tuesday, and probably no reason for anyone to close tomorrow. The roads were absolutely fine today after noon.

The problem is that politicians like the Gov are so scared that one person is going to have some problem that they foolishly and irresponsibly tell people to stay home and off the roads. Really? It's 45 degrees outside and the sun is shining and the roads are just wet. Stay home?

How do other cities do it? First they invest in equipment and have trained people to operate it, or they have private contractors who can fill in the gap. Second, they don't overreact and expect people to sit at home until every last speck of snow or ice has vanished. Third, people realize that winter happens and you can't be scared of it.

[PKCorey]

They showed your county (Cobb) on the news and none of the county pickups or dump trucks had plows. Just salt, sand or brine spreaders.

If we are going to have these frequent events of snow, it may be time to invest in the equipment once and for all. I did enjoy the pics of the City of Atlanta sanitation trucks with plows on them.

[alco89]

Originally Posted by neil0311

2 or 3 days multiplies when it happens 2 or 3 times each winter. They got time off for it being too cold, because we can't have kids waiting for a bus when it's 8 degrees outside. They got time off because it snowed 2 weeks ago. They got more time off this week. It all adds up. I hope they make it up and add days to the end of the school year like we did in Massachusetts (where we had fewer days off for snow).

Dude, Idk how long you've been living here, but this does NOT happen every winter. This was the first year since 2011 that kids got days off for winter weather. And there was a stretch after the ice storms in 2000 where nothing really happened at all until about 2009.

Same is true for business. There was absolutely no reason for everyone to close on Tuesday, and probably no reason for anyone to close tomorrow. The roads were absolutely fine today after noon.

I agree.

The problem is that politicians like the Gov are so scared that one person is going to have some problem that they foolishly and irresponsibly tell people to stay home and off the roads. Really? It's 45 degrees outside and the sun is shining and the roads are just wet. Stay home?

I think they were being over-cautious this time because they wanted to prevent any extra embarrassment to pile on top of 2 weeks ago.

How do other cities do it? First they invest in equipment and have trained people to operate it, or they have private contractors who can fill in the gap. Second, they don't overreact and expect people to sit at home until every last speck of snow or ice has vanished. Third, people realize that winter happens and you can't be scared of it.

I really think you and many other people fail to realize how much an investment it would be for a metro area of our size to beef up its equipment to be like the northern cities (because Lord knows you're not talking about southern cities like Dallas, Charlotte, Raleigh, Birmingham etc. when you say "other cities"). I remember someone saying that the city of Buffalo alone had hundreds of plows and trucks and whatnot, and that's just the city limits. Do you know what it would be like to provide that for an ENTIRE METRO AREA OF 5+ million people!? Just think about that. Especially in this city, where people whine and moan about every little tax or expenditure.

Also, yes, there was overreaction for this storm (no need to have some schools closed until next Tuesday, with the holiday), BUT 2 weeks ago there was under-action and look what happened.

[neil0311]

Originally Posted by alco89

I really think you and many other people fail to realize how much an investment it would be for a metro area of our size to beef up its equipment to be like the northern cities (because Lord knows you're not talking about southern cities like Dallas, Charlotte, Raleigh, Birmingham etc. when you say "other cities"). I remember someone saying that the city of Buffalo alone had hundreds of plows and trucks and whatnot, and that's just the city limits. Do you know what it would be like to provide that for an ENTIRE METRO AREA OF 5+ million people!? Just think about that. Especially in this city, where people whine and moan about every little tax or expenditure.

I'm not suggesting that Atlanta and the metro be able to withstand a foot of snow or a blizzard that dumps a huge amount of snow like NY or Chicago or Boston. I am suggesting that some middle ground needs to be found between that... and close down the town for 2 or 3 days and pray for it to melt.

As for plows, I'm not suggesting that they buy a fleet of huge commercial trucks with plow blades and spreaders on the back. What I think is very doable is to outfit existing trucks and pickups with blades and spreaders, perhaps buy some new equipment, and setup contingency contracts with private individuals and private companies to provide additional equipment during winter storms.

There could be a way to help private contractors offset the cost of plow blades and spreader equipment via direct subsidy or tax credits. You just need enough equipment to keep the major roads open. Subdivisions or HOAs could invest in a plow blade that can be put on a pickup for a couple of grand. A lot of the plowing up north is done by private contractors with their own equipment, not trucks owned by municipalities.

The cost of doing nothing is a drag on the economy, on education, and continued bad publicity. It shouldn't be this big of a deal for a couple inches of snow.

[toll_booth]

Originally Posted by NativeJr

At least they had the common sense to build a fire to stay warm overnight...don't we all feel dumb for not thinking of that.

oh. my. god. I think you just won the internet.

[neil0311]

List price for the heavy duty Fisher plow kit that provides the commercial grade required is around $5000 and change. If the state were to procure in a bid situation, I bet they could go direct for lets say $4000 each.

So for about $4 million, they could buy roughly 1,000 plow blades that can go on standard Ford, Chevy, Toyota pickup trucks.

HD Series Snow Plow | Fisher Engineering

For $40 million, they could buy 1,000 pickup trucks at a rough cost of $30K each (guessing here at what fleet cost would be) with the full plow kit.

Spreader kits for dump trucks and pickups are more expensive, but let's say the state allocated another $50 million to that purpose, and let's say they cost $25,000 each to buy. They could buy 2,000 of them.

So for around $90 million, the state could put around 1,000 plows and around 2,000 spreaders on the road.

[neil0311]

Actually it looks like spreader inserts are much less expensive than I thought. They may run about the same as the plow blade.

Meyer V-Box Insert Spreader — Carbon Steel, 10 1/2 HP Briggs & Stratton Engine, Model# 63792 | Insert Salt Spreaders| Northern Tool + Equipment

So what if you could put 1000 plow blades and 1000 spreaders on the street for under $10 million? Worth it?

[WanderingImport]

That is still A LOT of money to spend on supplies that will only be used realistically once every other year with a few exceptions.

I agree that something else needs to be done than the status quo and you're right on cue when it comes to thinking of a happy medium. I just don't think the numbers should be as high as you're suggesting.

There really needs to be regional cooperation. That in itself would help out tremendously.

Also, you're right again on the over-exaggeration about not getting on the roads today or tomorrow. Tonight being the exception as temps are going below freezing for a handful of hours.
I was on the roads today after noon and they were merely wet with a few left over patches in the HOV lane. Everything was melting incredibly fast.
This whole state is weird when it comes to that. My hometown of Savannah is delaying schools tomorrow for Chatham County. Why? No clue. They didn't get ice there. Sure, it was the next county over (Effingham) but it didn't affect Chatham in the least. That boggles my mind completely.

To the person that mentioned CNN's inability to mention anything besides Atlanta... I stayed tuned to CNN a good bit and saw LOTS of coverage of the Carolinas. Equally as much as Atlanta coverage. Plus, CNN is based here. There will probably always be a natural bias in some shape or form.

[waronxmas]

Originally Posted by neil0311

I lived and drove in Massachusetts for many years. I lived through many storms and drove many miles in the snow. Your point is invalid...here's why:.

Dude calm down. I was just poking fun at them. Of course I realize the differences (my family is from the Northeast so I understand). The fact of the matter is that when snow and ice start falling, there will always be traffic problems no matter the location of some sort. Yes, the Northeastern and Midwestern cities handle it better than the Southern cities (I mean, seriously, duh) but that doesn't mean they don't have problems. Everybody acts like whenever there is inclement weather up North, everything continues on like it was a sunny July day. That's horse manure.