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But, if they are part of MARTA, a possible HRT extension could be in the future(10-20 years). If they ran their own, there is no way they could have enough funds to build any type of fixed-guideway transit.
You make a valid point, but I'm curious how feasible they would have HRT even in 20 years with the way things are and have been going for other service areas. The main reason I wouldn't consider it -for now- is they can have a local county service, join MARTA later, and roll the local bus system into MARTA at that time. There is nothing to prevent that, so it doesn't need to be all-or-nothing right now. Then if you join MARTA with a well-laid out plan ahead of time with tangible benchmarks for what the county gets when/where for their contributions into the system.
MARTA pitched a similar size extension into Gwinnett trying to encourage Gwinnett voters a few years back. The key thing is it is a much larger county with 3 regional malls, so there is much more revenue. Even then, there was no promising timeline for how long it would take.
I think that is why the OP was curious about getting commuter rail up and running.
Truthfully, in both scenarios and both service types the real problem is lack of state involvement leadership, outside a group of politicians that just want to trash transit and defund everything.
You make a valid point, but I'm curious how feasible they would have HRT even in 20 years with the way things are and have been going for other service areas. The main reason I wouldn't consider it -for now- is they can have a local county service, join MARTA later, and roll the local bus system into MARTA at that time. There is nothing to prevent that, so it doesn't need to be all-or-nothing right now. Then if you join MARTA with a well-laid out plan ahead of time with tangible benchmarks for what the county gets when/where for their contributions into the system.
Well, one thing probably preventing such a scenario is that Clayton County government does not seem too interested in operating a separate county bus service for Clayton County.
At the time that C-Tran ceased operations, Clayton County wasn't all that interested in continuing to operate bus service and still does not seem all that interested in either operating a bus service or even in joining MARTA as evidenced by Clayton County's "study" of the best transit option (a county-operated bus service or joining MARTA) after not having any bus service in the county for more than 4 years now by choice of the county government.
Since Clayton County government was not interested in funding and operating bus transit service when they had it, and since Clayton County government still does not seem to be all that interested in funding and operating bus transit service after not having had it for over 4 years, it seems that joining MARTA would be a no-brainer.
But joining MARTA and letting them operate bus service in the transit-deficient county is not exactly a no-brainer amongst some very-small but powerful groups in Clayton County.
Those very-small but powerful anti-transit factions (who seem to have some kind of stranglehold over the county government's transit decisions) think that having transit service has been the reason why the county has so many poor and impoverished residents.
They think that Clayton County will be better off without bus transit because they think that having no transit service will deter poor people from continuing to move into the county. It's a very short-sighted and myopic way of thinking, but it's what they think, hence the reason why Clayton County government continues to drag their feet on re-establishing transit service in the county after 4 years of no transit service.
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Originally Posted by cwkimbro
MARTA pitched a similar size extension into Gwinnett trying to encourage Gwinnett voters a few years back. The key thing is it is a much larger county with 3 regional malls, so there is much more revenue. Even then, there was no promising timeline for how long it would take.
MARTA's inability to deliver expanded high-capacity passenger rail transit service into Northside suburban areas within an immediate time frame after those areas (like Gwinnett and Cobb) were to start collecting the 1% sales tax to fund MARTA operations if those areas were to join MARTA combined with MARTA's continued inability to expand heavy rail transit service into an area which already funds MARTA service in the GA 400 Corridor in North Fulton County is the reason why Northside business and real estate interests (who desperately want an expansion of rail transit service as a means of boosting commercial real estate values in Cobb, North Fulton and Gwinnett counties) had started to push for a state takeover and sell-off of MARTA to private investors before MARTA CEO Keith Parker had started having some early success in getting MARTA back into the black financially.
Parker's good working relationship with the MARTA-averse elements in the Georgia Legislature had enabled him to buy some time to get MARTA on a good financial and operational track and fend-off a takeover of the agency by Northside business and real estate interests who would likely get the money to expand HRT service into Cobb, North Fulton and Gwinnett counties by selling-off MARTA to private investors for billions of dollars.
Parker's good relationship with the MARTA-averse Georgia Legislature may have bought some time for the Southside social and cultural interests who continue to control MARTA for the time being, but those increasingly-restless Northside business and real estate interests will not stay out of the picture forever.
At some point in the not-too-distant future, those Northside business interests are probably going to make a power play to takeover MARTA and take political and financial control of MARTA away from Southside interests in Central and South Fulton and DeKalb counties. If and/or when that happens, extending rail transit service into a politically-weak and financially-struggling Clayton County likely will not be a priority of those powerful Northside business and real estate interests who first and foremost want rail transit service expanded out into Cobb, North Fulton and Gwinnett counties.
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Originally Posted by cwkimbro
I think that is why the OP was curious about getting commuter rail up and running.
The OP also seems to recognize the importance of having major transit links to Atlanta.
The OP recognizes that it would be impossible to fund an expansion of heavy rail transit service into the county with existing financial resources (basically the 1% MARTA sales tax and lagging farebox revenues), which is probably why the OP expressed an interest in getting commuter rail service into Clayton County instead probably thinking that there might be a better chance of getting commuter rail service operating in the county with existing financial resources because commuter rail on existing freight rail tracks would be cheaper than heavy rail transit service.
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Originally Posted by cwkimbro
Truthfully, in both scenarios and both service types the real problem is lack of state involvement leadership, outside a group of politicians that just want to trash transit and defund everything.
...This. You hit the nail right on the head with this statement.
I received a flyer on behalf of Clayton County Commisssioner Edmondson regarding the upcoming primary.
In the flyer info, I was very pleased to read of his strong support for the citizens of the county to determine via referendum if they want the county to join MARTA.
He seemed to recognize the importance of re-establishing mass transit options in the county & I believe that that is an important step forward for the county government & Clayton County.
Unless anti-transit groups conduct a well-financed campaign of disinformation, I beleive that the voters will vote in favor of the 1 cent sales tax being established followed by the introduction of MARTA service in Clayton.
I received a flyer on behalf of Clayton County Commisssioner Edmondson regarding the upcoming primary.
In the flyer info, I was very pleased to read of his strong support for the citizens of the county to determine via referendum if they want the county to join MARTA.
He seemed to recognize the importance of re-establishing mass transit options in the county & I believe that that is an important step forward for the county government & Clayton County.
Unless anti-transit groups conduct a well-financed campaign of disinformation, I beleive that the voters will vote in favor of the 1 cent sales tax being established followed by the introduction of MARTA service in Clayton.
But there is the caveat, he is considering levying a 1/2 tax or a quarter tax as opposed to the full penny tax. This is unacceptable because firstly, Clayton's acceptance into MARTA (and correct me if I'm wrong) is also contingent on neighboring Fulton and Dekalb accepting that Clayton will be paying less for the same services. And as the system expands and considerations for a 1% increase on the current 1% MARTA Tax, they will not approve of Clayton paying 1.5% while they are paying 2%. Furthermore, the funds generated by 1/2 or a 1/25 tax is not enough money for the long-term sustainment of the system or enough to bring rail in the future (whether that be in the form of commuter rails, HRT, or LRT technology) one of the transit options HIS constituents want.
Finally, with those numbers, the county will always have less then the other counties and as a result be last in terms of MARTA project lists if by some miracle it was approved . So its a political ploy. He know's that a 1/2 or quarter penny tax will fail, but he also knows that he can't go out and say he's against transit. So he's floating by this election year, by hiding behind this 1/2 penny tax nonsense so he can say he was for transit, but it failed because it was out of his hands.
But it is in his hands, he like the other commissioners can lobby for the 1% tax so that the County can join the system without its hands tied. Therefore, I urge you to contact his office either by phone or email to let him know that you are against the 1/2 tax and will support him if he supports the 1% tax and joining MARTA.
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Edmondson said the county would ideally levy a tax of one-quarter of a percent, but that the MARTA charter allows the lowest tax to be one-half of a percent. He said a full one-percent tax is not likely.
“We’re looking at half-a-penny or less,” said Edmondson.
Can Clayton join with a 1/2% tax and later increase it? Of whatever you join MARTA with is permanent? Would a second vote be needed to increase the funding percentage? Can a county defund and leave the system, without a county vote?
I ask because, I highly doubt Fulton & DeKalb saying NO. Clayton will join and MARTA will give them basic bus services if they are cheap and point to their contribution.
Can Clayton join with a 1/2% tax and later increase it? Of whatever you join MARTA with is permanent? Would a second vote be needed to increase the funding percentage? Can a county defund and leave the system, without a county vote?
I ask because, I highly doubt Fulton & DeKalb saying NO. Clayton will join and MARTA will give them basic bus services if they are cheap and point to their contribution.
From what I understand, its possible, but its not likely that Clayton could join with 1/2%. Furthermore, waiting another couple of years for the county legislators and commissioners to propose an increase doesn't make sense. It took a lot of political will for the most recent vote. Furthermore by joining at the 1/2% rate the county is shooting itself in the foot. As I stated above, it would mean that funds for southside projects would be far less.. meaning that even if MARTA came, they would provide only the bare bones of transit and Clayton would continually be at the bottom of the new projects list because inherently they'd be the lowest paying county.
This is where we disagree, I'd think Fulton & DeKalb would object to it. But overall I think we just need to bite the bullet and take the 1% increase. In order to offset that cost in the future, we need to discontinue the Splost. There's a lot of problems with it (mismanagement etc) and until better management it shouldn't be collected after the 2015 one passes. By doing so that will bring our tax rate back in line with the Metro Area as opposed to being the highest with the additional MARTA tax.
Finally, No the county can't defund and leave the system because there would be a contract with MARTA which would stipulate a set number of years that the service is provided. Furthermore, the people will vote whether or not they want to continue to have a MARTA tax every so often. The difference with Clayton joining MARTA vs county run C-Tran is exactly your fear. C-Tran was county funded (mostly) and for a while county run. Therefore, they had the power to pull the plug and walk away. In the later years of C-Tran they contracted with MARTA to operate C-Tran, but it was still a Clayton County System. The difference with Clayton joining MARTA is that it will be a MARTA ran venture as opposed to a county project. So yes the county will collect the tax, but the buses, operators, service plans, etc. All of that is MARTA.
But joining MARTA and letting them operate bus service in the transit-deficient county is not exactly a no-brainer amongst some very-small but powerful groups in Clayton County.
Those very-small but powerful anti-transit factions (who seem to have some kind of stranglehold over the county government's transit decisions) think that having transit service has been the reason why the county has so many poor and impoverished residents.
They think that Clayton County will be better off without bus transit because they think that having no transit service will deter poor people from continuing to move into the county. It's a very short-sighted and myopic way of thinking, but it's what they think, hence the reason why Clayton County government continues to drag their feet on re-establishing transit service in the county after 4 years of no transit service.
Exactly. This is why the county has been so slow to do the things it needs to get done for its population. Even though most of the good ole boys physically left the county, there hands are still evident in a lot of the things that go on down here. It sickens me.. but its up to the residents to vote out those who are swayed by there influence.
Quote:
Parker's good relationship with the MARTA-averse Georgia Legislature may have bought some time for the Southside social and cultural interests who continue to control MARTA for the time being, but those increasingly-restless Northside business and real estate interests will not stay out of the picture forever.
At some point in the not-too-distant future, those Northside business interests are probably going to make a power play to takeover MARTA and take political and financial control of MARTA away from Southside interests in Central and South Fulton and DeKalb counties. If and/or when that happens, extending rail transit service into a politically-weak and financially-struggling Clayton County likely will not be a priority of those powerful Northside business and real estate interests who first and foremost want rail transit service expanded out into Cobb, North Fulton and Gwinnett counties.[
Once again you hit the head on the nail. That's why Clayton needs to act NOW so they can secure their piece of the transit pie before its too late. If they miss out on this opportunity then Clayton will be in serious trouble.
Quote:
The OP also seems to recognize the importance of having major transit links to Atlanta.
The OP recognizes that it would be impossible to fund an expansion of heavy rail transit service into the county with existing financial resources (basically the 1% MARTA sales tax and lagging farebox revenues), which is probably why the OP expressed an interest in getting commuter rail service into Clayton County instead probably thinking that there might be a better chance of getting commuter rail service operating in the county with existing financial resources because commuter rail on existing freight rail tracks would be cheaper than heavy rail transit service.
My friend you have figured me out. Now if only we can find a way to secure that commuter rail for the county. If Clayton is able to join MARTA and pull off funding a commuter rail.. then we can reverse the slippery slope that county has been going down for so long.
Clayton's putting all their luck on transit. There are so many projects going on related to this it's crazy(Redevelopment of Forest Park's and Jonesboro's main streets and the University Station project). This is a big deal because of all of the jobs expected to come thanks to Fort Gillem and Aerotropolis. We need a way for people to get to these jobs. I also remember at a council meeting that Forest Park wants to extend the ATL Skytrain to the farmers market and Fort Gillem. Not sure what Lovejoy's doing but I'm interested because there's a lot of space out there.
Exactly. This is why the county has been so slow to do the things it needs to get done for its population. Even though most of the good ole boys physically left the county, there hands are still evident in a lot of the things that go on down here. It sickens me.. but its up to the residents to vote out those who are swayed by there influence.
I agree that the 'good-ole-boy' mentality continues to play a role in holding Clayton County back.
But with racial and ethnic minorities currently making up more than 85% of Clayton County's population, the inability to move forward on transit service in Clayton County does not seem to be because of the 'good-ole-boys' who have not been in charge of Clayton County politics in many years.
At this point in time of a black and minority-dominated Clayton County, the inability to move forward on transit service in Clayton County comes from a very-small, but powerful contingent of upper middle-class African-Americans who think that transit service makes Clayton County a magnet for low-income, poor and transient people to relocate into.
Those transit-averse upper middle-class African-Americans think that having no transit service in Clayton County makes the county a much less-attractive relocation destination for low-income transients and a much more-attractive relocation destination for upper middle-class newcomers to want to move into.
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Originally Posted by Listennow32
Once again you hit the head on the nail. That's why Clayton needs to act NOW so they can secure their piece of the transit pie before its too late. If they miss out on this opportunity then Clayton will be in serious trouble.
My friend you have figured me out. Now if only we can find a way to secure that commuter rail for the county. If Clayton is able to join MARTA and pull off funding a commuter rail.. then we can reverse the slippery slope that county has been going down for so long.
I agree that high-capacity passenger rail transit service can help Clayton County reverse its decline.
If the county gets the opportunity to get some kind of commuter rail service operating, it should definitely take that opportunity.
But with Clayton County being so urbanized at this point and with Clayton County needing an economic boost now more than ever, the long-term goal should be to get regional heavy rail transit service operating through the county along the entire length of the Norfolk Southern freight rail right-of-way where commuter rail service has long been proposed to run between Atlanta and Macon.
With that said, there MIGHT be a way for high-capacity passenger rail transit service to be extended into the county without needing to be dependent upon the proceeds from a voter-approved countywide 1% sales tax and/or waiting forever for the state to fund commuter rail service along the NS ROW.
That way to extend high-capacity passenger rail transit service into the county without the proceeds from a voter-approved countywide 1% sales tax and/or state funding might be for the county to implement a series of self-taxing CIDs (Community Improvement Districts) and/or TADs (Tax Allocation Districts) targeted to only along the busiest commercial and industrial corridors where it wants high-capacity transit service to operate, starting with along the NS ROW where regional commuter rail service has been proposed to operate.
Using self-taxing CIDs and TADs targeted to be collected from only the busiest commercial and industrial corridors where transit service is most-desired would likely be far-easier to implement than a countywide 1% sales tax because CIDs and TADs don't need the approval of voters in a countywide referendum like a 1% sales tax will.
Using self-taxing CIDs and TADs targeted to be collected only from the busiest commercial and industrial corridors also means that property tax revenues can be used to fund transit service in addition to sales tax revenues, particularly in the case of self-taxing CIDs where revenues from both property and sales taxes can be collected.
In addition to using CIDs and TADs to fund transit along selected high-capacity corridors, something else that might be help Clayton County tremendously in its quest to get high-capacity passenger rail transit service would be for Clayton County to get in front of the growing movement by powerful Northside business and real estate interests to privatize transit service in the Atlanta region and lead the push for the state to takeover MARTA, CCT (Cobb Community Transit) and GCT (Gwinnett County Transit) and sell them off along with GRTA Xpress commuter bus service to private real estate investors.
If Clayton County could get out in front of the Atlanta region's growing transit-privatization movement by joining the Northside powers in North Fulton, North DeKalb, Cobb and Gwinnett counties to push for the privatization of metro Atlanta's transit systems (MARTA, CCT, GCT and GRTA Xpress), Clayton County might be able to guarantee that it gets high-capacity passenger rail transit service (heavy rail and commuter rail service) when the Northside powers eventually act to expand rail transit service with private revenues from real estate investment.
Under this scenario, Clayton County still can (and should) move to join MARTA by way of a referendum to vote on a 1% sales tax. But after joining MARTA, Clayton County would move immediately to join and lead the push by the Northside powers to empower the state to takeover MARTA, CCT and GCT and sell them to private real estate investors along with GRTA Xpress.
In the current political and fiscal climate, Clayton County would probably be far more likely to get high-capacity passenger rail transit service extended into the county by joining the Northside powers in North Fulton, North DeKalb, Cobb and Gwinnett counties and taking the lead to privatize transit in the Atlanta region.
Another way that Clayton County might possibly be able to help itself much more quickly get passenger rail transit service operating in the county would be for the county to use the revenue streams from the aforementioned targeted CIDs and TADs to restart its own independent transit service and then immediately sell that restarted transit service to private real estate investors by way of a long-term lease of anywhere from 20-100 years.
The private real estate investors that Clayton County would sell its county transit service to would pay all costs of purchasing, operating and maintaining the buses and future train vehicles; and would pay all costs of land acquisitions, design, construction, operation and maintenance on the high-capacity passenger rail transit line in exchange for getting to keep all of the revenues collected from the CIDs/TADs, inflation-indexed distance-based fares on buses and trains, and profits from large-scale high-density mixed-use transit-oriented development the private investors build at and around stations and along transit lines.
Well I'm not trying to be a naysayer, but to examine this further...
That was from 2006. The problem is Georgia never used that money for this purpose. I'm not sure it is still available and I remember a good bit of press time to the GDOT trying to get permission to use the funds entirely for the MMPT project instead in the long-run.
The first thing you need to do is find out if that money was used for another purpose or if it expired. This includes both federal and state.
The next problem is inflation. You need to control for rising costs, particularly for cost related to building construction and rail construction, which will be heavy on labor, steel, and concrete costs. Just because inflation occurs, this doesn't mean the gov't allocations have increased with it. That money sits. This is a huge problem today. Sometimes states construct things well after federal funding, which greatly alters end-costs.
The third thing to examine has to do with anything that might have changed in setting up an operating agreement with Norfolk Southern to access to their tracks.
Since that time, the state was also trying to apply for a $400m FRA application to update that whole track to Macon, which would in turn also increase freight capacity. The state never put in any matching funds (meaning it wouldn't be given federal money). I'm not sure how much that is tied to any operations agreements.
Most importantly: In most cases that $87 million is a part of that $106m, not an addition. The $19m is the amount the state said they would fund to make their original application for funds competitive. 10 to 30% is typical for large projects.
It should also be noted that using that $87m requires a 10 year operations commitment. This is why states don't spend money they are ear-marked ASAP. If this commitment wasn't there, they would spend it fast and not risk losing it. It could lead to arguments over government waste if they could.
For buses... I need to see sources better for operations costs. I don't believe there is any formal plan for what service would be and what it would cost if this happened yet, so it is tough to determine. If people pay a 1% sales tax, they might expect more expansive service than previously existed. There would also be a large capital cost at start up, that would take time to collect tax money for. If bonds are bought, then the interest will push costs higher.
Overall my general thoughts are. It is doable, but it might be a tad bit more expensive than you think and some funds might have to come from elsewhere depending on how it is started up at the same time as a 1% MARTA tax. The introduction of a MARTA tax will also carry a heavy cost and an immediate expectation for buses. I don't think at this point in time MARTA will be capable of funding the start up with existing funds not from the additional tax revenue from Clayton Co.
Be quiet! You probably have like 3 cars and a possible. there are so many people who work everyday and have to walk to get to public transit. So many others who can get to work because many jobs are out of range. Why don't they just buy a car? Maybe because they can't afford one yet. aah gee ya think?! U wanna do some some math. There are 1 million people in the city of Atlanta. 500 k use public transit. Add the work commuters there's another 200 k. It cost $5.00 round trp to go any anywhere. Multiply $5.00 x 700 k x 5 days a week. I could go on. We are not gonna even count the tourists that flood the city over the summer. Marta BOard members all make over 70 k a year. They keep buying new police cars. They get for the ads on the buses and trains. Doable?! please! There is no need to raise any any tax on anything. They should cut the pay scale of the Board members and execs. NEXXXXXXXT!
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My friend you have figured me out. Now if only we can find a way to secure that commuter rail for the county. If Clayton is able to join MARTA and pull off funding a commuter rail.. then we can reverse the slippery slope that county has been going down for so long.
