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Ideally the higher-speed roadway will be entirely capped
I'd like it to evolve to that. Parks above it would be nice.
The fast lanes really only really need to come to grade at Ward Street (school busses from other parts of town), Atlanta Rd, and S. Cobb Dr. Thankfully, the post office already has a back way out on Ward Street.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Born 2 Roll
I like the European-style urban boulevard concept that the City of Smyrna is trying to pursue for Windy Hill Road between South Cobb Drive and Atlanta Road.
Though, instead of trying to get Cobb County to pay part of the cost of depressing express lanes and creating a little bit of a canyon-like effect through the middle of an European-style boulevard corridor, a better idea might be to use funding from a Value Capture taxing district and user fees (variable tolls on the express lanes) to tunnel the express lanes UNDER the local lanes between South Cobb Drive and Atlanta Road.
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I see the Smyrna section as a good test, so they can work out the kinks in a controlled situation, and an area that already had significant business density of unfortunately low-value use. Once they've done that, they can start duplicating the concept in other places, such as the intersection of Cobb Pkwy and Windy Hill. I'm afraid that if they just tunnelled Cobb Pkwy right now, they'd do something stupid that destroys the urban character and deters walkable development, like an army corps 50s-60s style "road upgrade". The Smyrna stretch has much more manageable cross-streets so I think it will allow them to test the concept on a smaller scale before the grade separation on Windy Hill and the other areas you mentioned.
The Smyrna section (this is really just the center of Smyrna, actually) is just the tip of the iceberg. In fact, the DDI interchange and other improvements going on are going to increase traffic through this corridor.
This boulevard style is one technique. In areas like Cobb Pkwy to Atlanta Rd past Village Pkwy where things are a little more open (that stretch has a golf course on the right side), a more typical "complete street" type design could probably prevail. I'd love to see a European style center-median LRT ROW on that stretch, which would switch to the at-grade section of the boulevard concept once it crosses Atlanta Rd.
Last edited by netdragon; 06-24-2014 at 03:21 PM..
I love the general idea, but I don't get the area they are talking about doing it in at all. It would just bottleneck once it gets past Atlanta Road because traffic is MUCH worse at Windy Hill and Cobb Parkway than it is at Windy Hill and Atlanta Rd. or South Cobb Dr.
If the plan is to make it go all the way from South Cobb Dr. to I-75 eventually then it makes a ton of sense, otherwise 100% waste of money.
I'd like it to evolve to that. Parks above it would be nice.
The fast lanes really only really need to come to grade at Ward Street (school busses from other parts of town), Atlanta Rd, and S. Cobb Dr. Thankfully, the post office already has a back way out on Ward Street.
If express lanes for Windy Hill Road were tunneled between South Cobb Drive and Atlanta Road, the express lanes would not need to come to grade at Ward Street because the surface local lanes would be used to access Ward Street and all other locations between South Cobb Drive and Atlanta Road where the higher-speed express lanes would be tunneled below the slower-speed local lanes.
(...The slower-speed surface local lanes would rejoin the higher-speed tunneled express lanes at the ends of the tunneled section west of South Cobb Drive and east of Atlanta Road/Dixie Avenue.)
If express lanes for Windy Hill Road were tunneled between South Cobb Drive and Atlanta Road, the express lanes would not need to come to grade at Ward Street because the surface local lanes would be used to access Ward Street and all other locations between South Cobb Drive and Atlanta Road where the higher-speed express lanes would be tunneled below the slower-speed local lanes.
(...The slower-speed surface local lanes would rejoin the higher-speed tunneled express lanes at the ends of the tunneled section west of South Cobb Drive and east of Atlanta Road/Dixie Avenue.)
I thought the renderings I saw showed it coming to grade at Ward Street (in the back of the rendering) but it could have been looking towards Atlanta Rd or South Cobb instead. I'm going to look to see if they describe the rendering at all.
With the schools and Post Office on Ward, I'm not sure if the two local lanes will be enough for Ward. But perhaps with the Belmont Rd connection from Atlanta Rd to Ward Street, currently under construction, Ward Street won't be an issue even with only two local lanes on Windy Hill for access to Ward. There's a nice roundabout where Belmont Rd meets Ward Street, already built, which may be able to handle quite a bit of traffic without any help from Windy Hill. The problem I see with Belmont Rd is that it's going to go through Belmont Hills, which is intended to be a walkable mixed-use development. Busses, parent traffic, and P.O. traffic going through there to both schools could be disruptive to pedestrians and those living at Belmont Hills.
I thought the renderings I saw showed it coming to grade at Ward Street (in the back of the rendering) but it could have been looking towards Atlanta Rd or South Cobb instead. I'm going to look to see if they describe the rendering at all.
With the schools and Post Office on Ward, I'm not sure if the two local lanes will be enough for Ward. But perhaps with the Belmont Rd connection from Atlanta Rd to Ward Street, currently under construction, Ward Street won't be an issue even with only two local lanes on Windy Hill for access to Ward. There's a nice roundabout where Belmont Rd meets Ward Street, already built, which may be able to handle quite a bit of traffic without any help from Windy Hill. The problem I see with Belmont Rd is that it's going to go through Belmont Hills, which is intended to be a walkable mixed-use development. Busses, parent traffic, and P.O. traffic going through there to both schools could be disruptive to pedestrians and those living at Belmont Hills.
But if the express lanes were to be tunneled under the local lanes, there MIGHT possibly be enough right-of-way to implement the full European urban boulevard complete streets concept with four local lanes instead of the two lanes that could only be implemented with the express lanes depressed below-grade through the middle of the boulevard.
I love the general idea, but I don't get the area they are talking about doing it in at all. It would just bottleneck once it gets past Atlanta Road because traffic is MUCH worse at Windy Hill and Cobb Parkway than it is at Windy Hill and Atlanta Rd. or South Cobb Dr.
You have to view this in a vacuum because the issues at Cobb Parkway are their own animal and something on the radar as well, and will be resolved separately in multiple steps. Currently, as a result of the Braves, they are already going to be putting in extra turn lanes at Windy Hill / Cobb Pkwy as part of the I-75 interchange project. Therefore, some improvements are slated regardless to open before 2017. The ultimate resolution of grade separation at Cobb Pkwy would be part of the BRT, which is probably not going to happen for a while since it isn't going to be on the SPLOST.
Quote:
Originally Posted by westau
If the plan is to make it go all the way from South Cobb Dr. to I-75 eventually then it makes a ton of sense, otherwise 100% waste of money.
I agree that long term, this is not a silver bullet. It is one cog in a wheel of making Windy Hill more useful for people in Due West and Paulding. I don't see it as a waste of money though, since it alleviates one of the worst stretches of Windy Hill and pretty much clears up everything from S. Cobb Dr to Cobb Pkwy. Realistically, short-term this is as much about urbanizing downtown Smyrna further and making it more walkable - general economic development of Smyrna - as it is about traffic relief. That's why Smyrna is going to be on the hook for a good amount of the cost.
My boss actually commutes from over there, and he uses Austell Rd to S. Cobb to Delk instead of Windy Hill through Smyrna. I asked him why he doesn't use Windy Hill through Smyrna, and one of the areas he cited was the stretch through Smyrna with all the stop lights from S. Cobb to Atlanta Rd, which this will address. However, to him, it's bad even before he gets to S. Cobb Dr due to all the stop lights West of South Cobb. So, to be viable, through and local traffic will probably need to be separated all the way to Austell Rd. Perhaps not a separated grade thing like through the center of Smyrna (which is probably inappropriate anyway due to the residential nature West of S. Cobb Dr) but something will need to be done there.
Therefore, without engineering seperation of local and through traffic all the way to Austell Rd, what we're likely to see is the area in Smyrna and directly West of Smyrna going vertical as a result of the added capacity through Smyrna and good conditions for walkable development. That's not a bad thing, considered Windy Hill @ S. Cobb Dr is one of the most blighted areas (and oldest areas) in the county.
The other things he mentioned are Cobb Pkwy and the interchange, no surprise to us. Hopefully, the DDI interchange and the extra turn lanes at Cobb Pkwy will help relieve that a bit, on days the Braves aren't playing.
Last edited by netdragon; 06-24-2014 at 04:09 PM..
But if the express lanes were to be tunneled under the local lanes, there MIGHT possibly be enough right-of-way to implement the full European urban boulevard complete streets concept with four local lanes instead of the two lanes that could only be implemented with the express lanes depressed below-grade through the middle of the boulevard.
Ahh. Your express tolls idea could probably pay for that.
I just don't see it making it better for anyone if it stops there. The bottleneck isn't solved, it would just get people to the bottleneck a little faster. If it is a staged plan to tie into other similar improvements closer to I-75 then that is fine but without some amount of grade separation at Cobb Parkway I don't see $40 million worth of benefits.
I just don't see it making it better for anyone if it stops there. The bottleneck isn't solved, it would just get people to the bottleneck a little faster. If it is a staged plan to tie into other similar improvements closer to I-75 then that is fine but without some amount of grade separation at Cobb Parkway I don't see $40 million worth of benefits.
You may be right, and may not be. I don't have sophisticated traffic modelling software. Pragmatically, I'd like to see what the extra turn lanes at Cobb Pkwy achieve before we start talking about grade separation. The 3-turn lane from Atlanta Rd to Cumberland Pkwy west works very well, for instance.
If it turns out that grade separation isn't necessary at this time, then it could even significantly reduce the cost estimates for the BRT, and make that project more likely to happen.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Born 2 Roll
But if the express lanes were to be tunneled under the local lanes, there MIGHT possibly be enough right-of-way to implement the full European urban boulevard complete streets concept with four local lanes instead of the two lanes that could only be implemented with the express lanes depressed below-grade through the middle of the boulevard.
So, I was thinking about this more, and it would be at the expense of walk-ability. Then pedestrians would have four local lanes to cross (two at a time). A two-fold increase. I'm not sure if that sacrifice is worth it.
Now, if it widens to two general purpose local lanes and two turn lanes at Ward St and only Ward St, perhaps that'd work.
Last edited by netdragon; 06-24-2014 at 04:27 PM..
Dallas rebuilt much of Central Expressway (US 75) north of downtown in a fashion similar to this. It is a great compromise for a freeway not to feel like it splits a neighborhood. The freeway is sunken, all overpasses are at street level, businesses look across at each other and don't have a stream of cars and trucks in between, traffic sounds are muted. From some angles, you might think a river was in that depression, not a freeway.
I understand this is not a freeway, but it is a major east/west corridor and freeway type relief is needed in spots. It enhances the street connectivity as well. Nice proposal, hope it comes to pass. Would like to see much of Cobb Parkway rebuilt in this style as well.
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