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I think the problem with 2 county is that a 1% sales tax may be overkill for some joint projects between two counties and may not spread it around enough. For instance, maybe Fulton and Cobb could do some joint transit projects (theoretically) but then that means they would need ANOTHER 1% sales tax to do the same thing with Gwinnett, or Dekalb, or Clayton? Or do I misunderstand how the new proposal works?
Fulton and Cobb...two counties that traditionally have hated each other's guts voluntarily working together on a transit project...now that would quite the sight to see, LOL!
Your comments also reflect one of the flaws of the smaller T-SPLOST approach where counties voluntarily tax themselves to work together on multi-county transportation projects.
If groups of counties were to partner and/or join together to voluntarily tax themselves to work on multi-county transportation projects, the law would have to allow them to collect sales taxes that were less than or a fraction of 1%...because a 1% sales tax would likely be overkill for many inter-county transportation projects.
In that case Cobb (and Gwinnett/Clayton) would be better off approving the MARTA sales tax.
I think that if GRTA or some other as yet un-created regional authority were to take charge and begin to create some cohesion between MARTA, CCT and GCT, then maybe we could have one authority formed out of all three, but allowing a high level of autonomy with some central coordination.
Clayton may join MARTA because they couldn't keep their own transit authority afloat and will probably join MARTA now. Cobb and Gwinnett aren't going to give up their local control to MARTA unless it's allowing some bigger authority to coordinate like I mentioned. Or if Gwinnett and Cobb start building rail and find they can't afford it and need MARTA to bail them out, like Clayton needed for their bus system
netdragon - you do realize that MARTA was intended to be that authority, right? Hence: METRO ATLANTA Rapid Transit Authority. Originally it was promised to get a large chunk of state funding. Then state instead decided to fund it with 1% sales taxes that each county had to approve. Many of the suburban counties were (somewhat rightly) not up to paying that. Plus "those people" might ride the train out to their neighborhood.
Up until just a few years ago Clayton and Gwinnett even still had seats on the MARTA board.
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MARTA was originally proposed as a rapid transit agency for DeKalb, Fulton, Clayton, Gwinnett, and Cobb counties. These were the five original counties in the Atlanta metropolitan area, and to this day are the five largest counties in the region. MARTA was formed by an act of the Georgia General Assembly in 1965. In the same year, four of the five metropolitan area counties (Clayton, DeKalb, Fulton, and Gwinnett) and the City of Atlanta passed a referendum authorizing participation in the system, but the referendum failed in Cobb County.
Exactly; MARTA is Atlanta's metro area transit system, not GRTA. Atlanta, Fulton, and DeKalb should be suspicious of state lawmakers, who years ago wouldn't have ridden MARTA much less wanted to run it, who are now only interested in the system as it begins to develop some lucrative development deals on its land.
Exactly; MARTA is Atlanta's metro area transit system, not GRTA. Atlanta, Fulton, and DeKalb should be suspicious of state lawmakers, who years ago wouldn't have ridden MARTA much less wanted to run it, who are now only interested in the system as it begins to develop some lucrative development deals on its land.
This is an excellent comment that hits the nail right on the head as most state lawmakers would not have been caught dead even saying the word MARTA, much less advocating for state involvement in MARTA.
The major reasons why state lawmakers (who primarily represent powerful business and real estate interests in Atlanta's highly-influential Northern suburban counties of Cobb, North Fulton, North DeKalb and Gwinnett) have recently suddenly become extremely-interested in MARTA is because of the very-substantial profit-making potential of the land that MARTA owns around many of its stations.
As MARTA continues to develop lucrative development deals on the land that it owns around its stations, expect interest in the system by Northside business, real estate and political interests to continue to increase to the point where Northside interests increasingly keep talking takeover and/or merger (with CCT and GCT) as a means for expansion out the politically-powerful I-75 NW, GA 400 N and I-85 NE OTP radial corridors.
Depending on the political calculus in coming years (whether Republicans continue to dominate or whether Democrats see a rise in power), in the not-too-distant future, the powerful Northsiders are likely going to make some kind of political move to either join and/or take control of MARTA (probably while trying to avoid paying the 1% countywide sales tax that Fulton and DeKalb residents currently pay).
...Because the politically-powerful Northsiders have come to realize the critical importance of transit connectivity to the 21st Century real estate market.
Depending on the political calculus in coming years (whether Republicans continue to dominate or whether Democrats see a rise in power), in the not-too-distant future, the powerful Northsiders are likely going to make some kind of political move to either join and/or take control of MARTA (probably while trying to avoid paying the 1% countywide sales tax that Fulton and DeKalb residents currently pay).
...Because the politically-powerful Northsiders have come to realize the critical importance of transit connectivity to the 21st Century real estate market.
I hope you realize that the state making a power-play to "steal" MARTA control from Fulton/DeKalb, especially without keeping the sales tax, would be tied up in court for years and cost the state a s**tload in legal fees. Is the state also going to buy out MARTA's debt service (totaling well over a billion dollars) and $3.5 billion worth of infrastructure as well?
Fulton and Cobb...two counties that traditionally have hated each other's guts voluntarily working together on a transit project...now that would quite the sight to see, LOL!
I don't see that as the case. I see it as two counties that grew at completely different times where most of the citizens of either county moved here long after the stuff in the 70s with MARTA, and that only a few people hate either county, and the rest just live where they live and do what they need to in order to survive.
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Originally Posted by jsvh
netdragon - you do realize that MARTA was intended to be that authority, right? Hence: METRO ATLANTA Rapid Transit Authority.
Before even 1980, it wasn't the metro system. That was the intention, but it didn't happen that way. I'm not saying MARTA shouldn't be the metro-wide system, it just isn't, and never will be. History is history, and I wasn't even alive when that all went down. I have absolutely no personal energy invested in MARTA being the metro system and I just want whatever works best for the area I live firstly, then the metro secondly.
The structure of MARTA is based on old-fashioned 60s bureaucracy, somewhat hobbled together partially for the Olympic bid and partially for other reasons. In all the time that MARTA was around, it had loads of capital funding available and in the process only got two rail trunks and a bus system built, with stations that are, for the most part with a few stations as exceptions, depressing and sterile looking without a renovation in years. It doesn't have express trains, only trains that stop at every station. The heavy rail stock and trunk network isn't appropriate everywhere, nor are busses, and it should have had something in between - light rail - in some areas. It didn't build any light rail, that had to be done separately then seeded over to MARTA. I'm not saying that's MARTA's fault - they were hampered by a lot of things including not being allowed to increase operating funds but to people sitting outside who don't know all the issues, it looks like they were mis-managed, and honestly until the last five years or so, I really believe MARTA was mismanaged. MARTA has gotten better as of late, partially due to higher ridership and partially due to having to reform itself, and partially due to getting more operating funding some years. Hopefully the new CEO can really fix things.
Anyway, with how efficiently CCT is run, it is unlikely that Cobb people are going to invite MARTA in. You could say that whereas MARTA has a lot bigger bus network, CCT has limited routes and doesn't have rail so there's no way to compare. However, CCT will eventually have rail, and it's going to grow, and MARTA and CCT will be two separate systems joined at the hip. That's reality.
Furthermore, Fulton has its own government, and Cobb has its own, and they have different development priorities. Atlanta city government would like to see itself be the center of all things, and everything connect through Atlanta. Fulton County would like to see the 400 corridor and connector be the same. Cobb obviously wants Cumberland, Marietta and Town Center to economically develop and bring jobs. This isn't "hating Atlanta" or "hating Fulton". This is Cobb leaders doing what's best for Cobb, as they were elected. Turning Cobb into a bedroom community for Atlanta again wouldn't be the best for Cobb. Let's be realistic too: If MARTA were in Cobb County, they would probably have a trunk line to Cumberland, and a bus to Town Center, and maybe one down Roswell Rd, and that'd probably be it. CCT offers more routes, already.
Anyway, so the likelihood of everything coming together under MARTA is unlikely unless MARTA suddenly has a bunch of surplus cash. So, that's why they created these other authorities, to try to unite the different systems together and create a metro-wide system again.
If the CEO of MARTA can make these development programs being working on work, and cell the airspace on the stations for oodles and oodles of money, you may see Cobb willing to take off the CCT logos and stick MARTA on it, granted there's certain contracts in place not to neglect Cobb.
Last edited by netdragon; 06-28-2014 at 02:28 PM..
Up until just a few years ago Clayton and Gwinnett even still had seats on the MARTA board.
Clayton County could get those seats back as a full part of the MARTA system very soon (we can hope).
Plus, you made a very important point. The MARTA Act of 1965, the General Assembly legislation that originally created the transit authority, included Fulton, DeKalb, Cobb, Gwinnett, and Clayton counties. There were two referendums on the subject of MARTA over the following years:
- The 1968 referendum, which approved participation in MARTA in four of the five counties (Cobb was the exception). This is probably why Clayton and Gwinnett had seats on the MARTA Board, even if they didn't pay the 1% sales tax.
- Here's the kicker: the 1971 referendum, which was on the subject of the 1% sales tax used to fund most of MARTA's operations. It was this referendum that failed in Clayton and Gwinnett. Subsequent nonbinding referendums, as recently as 2010, confirmed that Clayton is interested in paying into (and thus, fully becoming a part of,) the MARTA system. That binding referendum may come in November if the Clayton County Commission approves the referendum in their July 1 meeting.
One question I have to ask: Assuming CCT eventually links up to MARTA with heavy or light rail, or at worst BRT, let's say through Cumberland, Marietta Blvd, and via Holmes in South Cobb near Six Flags then who cares whether it's officially MARTA or not?
MARTA already runs routes to Cobb County, and Cobb County already runs routes to Arts Center. Furthermore, the only route from Perimeter Center to Cobb is run by CCT along Roswell Rd (which was temporarily eliminated due to funding and low ridership but is being brought back due to demand)
Also, could MARTA afford to buy Cobb's assets, including a transfer station at Cumberland, bus stock, and the main station in Marietta? I don't see how a cash-strapped authority could afford it. If it can't, then why should Cobb just give these assets up for free to MARTA? We'd expect something in return, e.g. a promise to cover an equivalent amount of the costs for a rail trunk to Town Center and an agreement not to reduce bus routes, signed in a binding contract.
Do you think Fulton and Dekalb county residents (and possibly soon Clayton) would be happy that they've been giving 1% for years with very little MARTA expansion then suddenly MARTA is paying some of the costs for a huge trunk in Cobb and in the process going to cover Cobb's bus operating costs? I don't think most people would be level-headed and crunch the numbers the 1% in Cobb would be bringing to the authority. There'd instead be immediate butt-hurt, we've seen it before.
I hope you realize that the state making a power-play to "steal" MARTA control from Fulton/DeKalb, especially without keeping the sales tax, would be tied up in court for years and cost the state a s**tload in legal fees.
The Northsiders will probably move to abolish the 1% sales tax and replace it with revenues from Value Capture taxing districts (Tax Allocation Districts, Tax Increment Financing, self-taxing Community Improvement Districts (...like the funding from the Perimeter Center CID that is currently being used to pay half of the $500 million cost of the reconstruction of the I-285/GA 400 interchange), etc), commercial real estate development along transit lines and major private sponsorships from individuals and major corporations.
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Originally Posted by Gulch
Is the state also going to buy out MARTA's debt service (totaling well over a billion dollars) and $3.5 billion worth of infrastructure as well?
If the state conducted a 'hostile takeover' of MARTA, they would not use public funds, but would use private funds from private investors....As they were planning to do before the arrival of Keith Parker at MARTA.
With Keith Parker continuing to make moves to cultivate new streams of revenue from large-scale transit-oriented real estate development at, around and even above MARTA stations, Southside interests (in South Fulton, South DeKalb and soon-to-be Clayton) have more political and financial leverage against a potential hostile takeover of the agency by Northside interests (led by desperate North Fulton and North DeKalb interests with quiet but powerful help from Cobb and Gwinnett interests)...
...Which the increased leverage of Southside interests due to MARTA's improving financial position means that Northside interests would have no choice but to partner with Southside interests to expand the geographical footprint of the agency....That's because MARTA is no longer in the weakened financial position and extremely-vulnerable to hostile takeover by the state at the behest of increasingly impatient Northsiders that it was before the arrival of Keith Parker.
Southside interests also most-likely would have very-little choice but to partner with Northside interests to expand MARTA's geographical footprint north into Cobb, North Fulton and Gwinnett counties because those Northside counties have all of the legislative power (don't forget that MARTA is a legislative creation of the state legislature) and would most-likely be offering a greatly-expanded amount of transit service on the Southside in exchange for expansion of the agency's geographical footprint into the powerful Northern suburbs.
Last edited by Born 2 Roll; 06-28-2014 at 03:28 PM..
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