Irony is, Atlanta (Terminus) owes it's existence to using RAIL more than any other city... (Roswell: 2014, how much)

[flamadiddle]

I don't envy anyone trying to design a rail plan for the Atlanta area. As some of you have mentioned, Atlanta is much different than cities like Chicago that have a large, dense downtown area. Atlanta instead has a multitude of business districts spread out over a large metro area making rail inefficient. Not sure if there is an answer for Atlanta other than the George Jetson flying car?

[cqholt]

Here's a revolutionary idea to offset the costs of LRT.... During night time hours, allow special freight vehicles to use the corridor to deliver goods to businesses along the tracks.

[cwkimbro]

There are many small misconceptions throughout this thread. Few quick general thoughts:

-The old rails weren't as congested and handled passenger and freight, but they didn't have nearly the amount of freight we handle today.

-Rails is still extremely important to Atlanta, but it is freight. In face the junction downtown was pretty much rebuilt to the northeast for handling the high amounts of freight. For freight its more heavily used and important as ever. Analysts are also noticing the south is leading growth in manufacturing and that is expected to continue, so our freight hub is important for the South to remind competitive. The classification yards to the northeast, which is largely hidden to the public are extremely long an HUGE. They can also help build long train for long-distance travel to more markets many other cities can't. Other major inland rail hubs to look at besides Chicago is Dallas and Kansas City. At this point we can't turn our back on freight just for passengers.

-the idea that Birmingham almost became Atlanta is overblown. Atlanta was always going to be the faster growing rail and interstate hub and would always attract more industry to make use of cheaper access to materials and shipping to customers. That is thanks to the Appalachian Mountains. BHM had one of two old Southern hub airlines that tried to entice them to expand their airport when they were trying to get a competitive contract from ATL. It is unlikely they would have had the same level of success and ATL would have still had a larger market to serve and a hub airline. After years of consolidation it would have likely ended up here anyways with our larger O&D base.

-Our multi-nodal way of building business districts does no have to be inefficient for passenger rail travel if we build a good high frequency rail backbone between them and direct connections between them (we can't have all connections made downtown). Most European cities are actually multi-nodal and their passenger system crisps-cross in different directions often profiling single connection access to most parts of their city. It prevents congestion from a single node. Our problem relates to our zoning practices where we actually encourage/require less density zoning than market conditions would have.... at least outside of the CBDs.

[Schemula]

Originally Posted by waronxmas

I guess during your BS rant you didn't bother to look up when MARTA was built. Here's a hint: It was the 1970s and shepherded by that "black power structure" in to existence despite the road blocks setup by the suburban counties and the State government.

Based on your user name, we can assume focusing on things out of context and being overly simple is your thing.

There was no "rant" nor any component of "blame black." But, since you went there, Massell was the mayor until 1974 and Jackson became the mayor in 1975. MARTA and the rail plans were a done deal by then. Cobb rejected MARTA in the 60s as did Clayton and Gwinnett.

Of course you elected to keep it basic, and conveniently ignored this:

Originally Posted by Schemula

The suburban counties are the ones who dropped the ball. They absolutely knew the growth wave was coming and they did absolutely nothing.

Originally Posted by waronxmas

And yet you can take the train to all of those places right now except for two (Turner Field and Va-Hi) from the O4W. Go somewhere else with this nonsense.

Exactly. I can actually hear the East West line from where I live and yet, I don't find myself using it for anything.

I think we missed the opportunity to have rail make a "big" difference and now we'd be a lot better off looking at an aggressive mix of other types of projects, primarily de-emphasizing the car.

[Schemula]

Originally Posted by cwkimbro

-the idea that Birmingham almost became Atlanta is overblown. Atlanta was always going to be the faster growing rail and interstate hub and would always attract more industry to make use of cheaper access to materials and shipping to customers. That is thanks to the Appalachian Mountains. BHM had one of two old Southern hub airlines that tried to entice them to expand their airport when they were trying to get a competitive contract from ATL. It is unlikely they would have had the same level of success and ATL would have still had a larger market to serve and a hub airline. After years of consolidation it would have likely ended up here anyways with our larger O&D base.

The story or idea has always had legs.

Did Delta hub propel Atlanta over Birmingham? - Birmingham Business Journal

Looks like Birmingham also fights with a city government weakened by municipalities. A lesson for us there?

Is metro Birmingham condemned to mediocrity? |

If you think Georgia is backwater, there's always Alabama.

Trying to change: how Birmingham progressives struggled against the odds

[cwkimbro]

Schemula,

You're conveniently forgetting that Cobb and Gwinnett haven't done nothing and they had to develop their arterial road system with less help from the federal and state government that the core areas of Fulton and DeKalb had.

They just put their money in different places and had less help. Most of the time the sales tax rates have been the same... with the exception of the recent MOST tax. It is the view point that they did nothing that is overly simplistic.


And before you make this an overly simplistic car vs. transit argument, Dense urban environments still need large robust arterial road systems to function. Something many people commonly forget. What we really need is more funding from the state, which our region is already over-contributing to vs. what we get back.

[cwkimbro]

Originally Posted by Schemula

The story or idea has always had legs.

Did Delta hub propel Atlanta over Birmingham? - Birmingham Business Journal

Looks like Birmingham also fights with a city government weakened by municipalities. A lesson for us there?

Is metro Birmingham condemned to mediocrity? |

If you think Georgia is backwater, there's always Alabama.

Trying to change: how Birmingham progressives struggled against the odds

And if you read my reply to that... the general logic of that story has holes.

It was only one airline, pre-consolidation. They were negotiating with Atlanta and Atlanta was the Southern hub of economic growth with our ability to send materials to and from the Northeast and Midwest without a mountain crossing... the reason we exist.

Atlanta was always going to grow ahead of Birmingham in the modern economy. After consolidation the airlines would have followed suit.

It isn't near as simple as... it was Birmingham's to lose ideology. Atlanta had more going for it moving forward.

[Schemula]

Originally Posted by cwkimbro

You're conveniently forgetting that Cobb and Gwinnett haven't done nothing and they had to develop their arterial road system with less help from the federal and state government that the core areas of Fulton and DeKalb had.

I lived in Gwinnett in 1980 and can attest that it was the the woods. There was almost no development of any kind there. After that they experienced decades of some of the highest growth anywhere in the country and while not as overtly isolationist as Cobb, they still managed to eschew regionalism in favor of cozy good ol' boy politics and go it alone development. "Gwinnett Is Great" and "Success Lives Here." They believed in themselves, to a fault.

It's this missed development opportunity from such raw clay that really defines the region for me and now that "it's built" it's doubly hard to change or make an impact. Building something like a regional light rail system would have been infinitely easier in 1980 than now.

Originally Posted by cwkimbro

And before you make this an overly simplistic car vs. transit argument, Dense urban environments still need large robust arterial road systems to function. /snip What we really need is more funding from the state, which our region is already over-contributing to vs. what we get back.

I don't disagree with that. There is an expense and lead time for big transit projects that means we can't rely on them to make an impact any time soon. A lot of your life is lived very close to where you live and that is where it would be a lot easier to make an impact. Just look how the tax incentives have put so many Nissan Leafs (at least half the size of an SUV) on the roads. Now we need chargers. Look at the Beltline's popularity, and while I have some issues with the failure to do these in-town bike lanes correctly (primarily around the strict separation of pedestrian/bike/car traffic) the amount of people in-town riding bikes to work and play show that that is an area where we could really make an impact if done correctly.

I'd probably rather see those lower level localized projects flourish than a $1B retooling of the 400/285 interchange or running a rail spur up 75. Do those if you can (and more federal money probably exists for those types of projects), but, I'd put the emphasis on the local street level.

It's not car vs. transit in a simple way, but, building for the "future" really seems to be more about a post car world, so, I'm not so sure we should continue to dedicate more resources to pandering to the car. We will look back at the 90s, with a 110 pound housewife in a 7,000 pound SUV fighting to stuff it into a parking space and go, "wow, we messed that up." Tax incentives are a simple way to affect how and what we do. Whatever the weight limit is for making a vehicle eligible for the Farm Vehicle Tax credit that basically was the fuel for the SUV craze, the BMW X5 came in about 20 pounds over that limit.

The state can't compare to what we can get from the Feds and the state has not and is not likely to come through in any meaningful way. The streetcar was almost entirely a fill out some forms, get some Federal money, build something quick! I live 2 blocks from the street car and can't see myself using it for anything because, I can walk or bike that route more effectively.

Absolutely nothing about any of this is overly simplistic now.

[Mutiny77]

Originally Posted by Schemula

Based on your user name, we can assume focusing on things out of context and being overly simple is your thing.

I don't have a dog in this fight, but waronxmas has been around these parts for a long time and is one of this forum's most insightful posters. Being the newbie that you are here, it wouldn't be prudent to say what someone is about based on a simple username when you haven't been around long enough to interact with someone over a period of time.

[Schemula]

Originally Posted by Mutiny77

I don't have a dog in this fight, but waronxmas has been around these parts for a long time and is one of this forum's most insightful posters. Being the newbie that you are here, it wouldn't be prudent to say what someone is about based on a simple username when you haven't been around long enough to interact with someone over a period of time.

Fair enough. I'm sure he/she can take a little poke and jab, he/she certainly did not mind giving a little. I'll look to see some of this insightfulness in the future, I certainly did not see it in that exchange. Respect is always earned. Always.