Irony is, Atlanta (Terminus) owes it's existence to using RAIL more than any other city... (Marietta: real estate, condo)
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I know people who commute down 400 from Alpharetta and Roswell in the morning and sit there looking at the MARTA tracks while they're sitting in traffic. They literally sit there and watch the train whiz right by in the same place for a half hour while they're burning up precious time and gas in their cars, yet they still refuse to pull off the highway and get on the train, they prefer to sit in the traffic, because they love driving and they love their car.
Just as traffic problems have started slowing sprawl (at least until Town Center, Gwinnett Center, and Aerotropolis become as big as Cumberland, midtown/midtown, Buckhead, or Perimeter Center currently are), I think traffic issues will change this behavior as well. E.g. even if Cobb has LRT or BRT, the behavior won't change in Cobb, nor will it in North Fulton if they extend rail out there. That's just an economic engine for now. The pain will need to get much greater for the behavior to change. L.A. was much worse than Atlanta is before they started developing other significant options, except in the very city center.
Another issue is the lack of LRT and circulators in job centers.
Another issue is interconnectivity. As mentioned, it can't all be centrally connected. E.g., even if Cobb builds LRT/BRT, people commuting from Dunwoody to Cobb Pkwy are going to still drive and won't change that even if their business is right on the LRT / BRT. Why? Because they don't want to connect through midtown, in general. There would need to be a top-end 285 rail or BRT connection to MARTA.
Research including Amtrak has already shown that getting all commuter rail to downtown and also supporting Atlanta as a hub for high-speed rail is prohibitively expensive with just the MMPT. The MMPT can cover the South metro and downtown. I think MARTA can be the central trunk for connecting up the central stations, and the MMPT can be the main station, but there will need to be others at the same time. MMPT can't be the only one.
That's why there's already discussion for a second station in Atlantic Station in the empty lot next to the Ikea. That can catch the Northern commuter lines and the stuff left behind when the Brookwood Amtrak station closes (and hopefully becomes a museum).
Then there's Perimeter Center, that's three. Lindbergh is already a transfer station, that's four. We also should have one for Aeotropolis in the airport, that's five. Eventually, Cumberland will be the hub for the NW metro - that's six. And maybe the former Doraville Ford plant for the NE, or Brookhaven - that's six. We haven't even discussed Buckhead. Is it unreasonable to think it may have a major hub?
In Manhatten, there's no centralized station. There's Grand Central for Metro North, and Penn Station and the WTC station, Atlantic Terminal at Flatbush Ave, and there's the Port Authority as well. They connect to the airports in Brooklyn.
I think ultimately Atlanta's in the same boat.
You're getting a few things mixed up.
Again please look at the Concept 3 plan I keep referring to....
There is room for minor hubs in different parts of town, but the basic point of commuter rail (and the cost savings) is trying to utilize existing infrastructure with some upgrades/overhauls to allow for capacity. To do that we have to use the layout of existing infrastructure and for most.... they all point downtown. Additionally, from a regional planning perspective having that area to attract the best employers is crucial.
Amtrak did not do the kind of study you're trying to say, nor did the state. They are not working on a second station... they are working on a replacement station and they are working under the assumption of a no-build scenario for the MMPT/Commuter rail in Atlanta. The issue is they can't wait around for decades, while the state does nothing. There is also an issue with their willingness to turn the train around on a wye if they go downtown, but it is doable. Overcoming that isn't warranted unless we had a large built-out network.
Amtrak and the state has no plans or studies to catch commuter rail trains there. It is merely planned to be a station for Amtrak trains. It also is only along the right of way with one potential commuter rail line. They are placing it there, because it is one of the few places to locate along the single rail alignment from Gainesville going to Birmingham.
Their new station will not intersect with anything other than one potential commuter rail line, the LRT/BRT line from Cobb, and a couple of bus routes.
The best place for secondary hubs are actually not any of the places you're mentioning. The best place would be Armour Yard, because it is the intersecting point of MARTA + 2 railroad right of ways (includes Beltline and Emory/CDC LRT, and 2 commuter rail lines). It is also positioned to intersect with Amtrak and potential national lines.
Buckhead as a hub is unlikely. The problem is the existing infrastructure is not there, at least that is not already being used. Some things are too expensive to build and there are neighborhoods positioned around it not providing a path for right of way. There are plans to do a streetcar from Brookhaven through Buckhead to Midtown/Downtown along Peachtree, though.
The issue we have with commuter rail isn't just the MMPT and it isn't always against freight. The bottle neck freight has is to the northwest of town and a junction between there and Downtown called Howell Junction.
The catch is in long-range planning we need to fix this junction for freight alone, but fixing it for freight will free up a good deal of capacity in the area. The other concern about commuter rail is being able to have two-way, all-day service, which MattCW is a big fan of.
To put this simply... if Howell Junction is fixed... if you can get a train to the new Amtrak station... you can get it downtown.
They are placing it there, because it is one of the few places to locate along the single rail alignment from Gainesville going to Birmingham.
It's also a better location for commuter rail from Cobb. Additionally, for various reasons, Cobb won't connect through downtown: (1) It's out of the way for Perimeter Center <-> Cobb commuters (2) Out of the way for Buckhead <-> Cobb commuters. (3) More of the commuters into Cobb are from Buckhead, not downtown. (4) What area of the metro Cobb is - it's basically aligned as far as growth, commuting patterns and land value with Buckhead and North perimeter.
Cobb has always seen eventual commuter rail connecting to Arts Center, as will its BRT, but now it'll probably connect to Atlantic Station instead.
The part of Cobb that would connect to downtown is the Six Flags area since there's no good way to connect it through Cobb to Cumberland. This will probably be MARTA, not anything else.
It's also a better location for commuter rail from Cobb. Additionally, for various reasons, Cobb won't connect through downtown: (1) It's out of the way for Perimeter Center <-> Cobb commuters (2) Out of the way for Buckhead <-> Cobb commuters. (3) More of the commuters into Cobb are from Buckhead, not downtown. (4) What area of the metro Cobb is - it's basically aligned as far as growth, commuting patterns and land value with Buckhead and North perimeter.
Cobb has always seen eventual commuter rail connecting to Arts Center, as will its BRT, but now it'll probably connect to Atlantic Station instead.
The part of Cobb that would connect to downtown is the Six Flags area since there's no good way to connect it through Cobb to Cumberland. This will probably be MARTA, not anything else.
That has never been apart of the plan nor is it in any studies, 'nor is it in an Amtrak study.
The problem with that:
1) The trains can't continue onto downtown
2) It takes up time slots on two mainlines, rather than 1...lowering freight capacity more... not less. The mainlines going from Howell Junction to downtown are bigger and increase capacity as mainlines merge.
3) They'd have to create an additional wye to reverse the train into to switch directions... in the single most congested place for trains in the city.
4) It doesn't meet planning goals to create an area of Atlanta where the whole regional population can reach within an hour 30 years out.
5) Commuter rail in Cobb will face the harshest battles of all routes and have more doubt of even happening more than any other corridor in town. The amount of freight going northwest to the industrial midwest + our region's arrival of coal from the western Appalachians make it one of the most congested corridors in the country and the most congested in the southeast. There is a reason Concept3 conveniently is missing some commuter lines in Cobb, while aggressively pursuing a regional oriented version of LRT.
6) AGAIN PLEASE LOOK UP CONCEPT3. For Perimeter bound commuters they already pitched a northern LRT line that wouldn't require a connection and travels direct. There is no reason to orient commuter trains to serving the same purpose, especially they require a connection and traveling in a different direction. For Buckhound bound commuters best bet is the LRT alignment from Cobb, which shows potential for an Arts Center station or a Armour Yard station using the northern edge of the beltline. The other alignments fail to go downtown.
You're more likely to have Cobb trains continue south to the airport and/or have southern trains continue to north to a northern hub... however that northern hub should be Armour yard for the previously mentioned reasons.
i also don't agree that commuter rail would sit empty. i think it would get a ton of use from day one and would see even more ridership as atlanta commuters began to shape their lives around getting to the train, much as they do with freeways today.
That might take a long time, though.
I think you are right about the idea of using a flexible system rather than the old-and-spoke concept.
I think you are right about the idea of using a flexible system rather than the old-and-spoke concept.
thanks— but maybe i haven't been entirely clear on what i've been talking about. i think MARTA rail should use a flexible system that connects cobb to north fulton, perimeter center to gwinnett, etc.
commuter rail, i think, is best to serve areas that are far outside atlanta, such as macon, gainesville, athens, newnan, lovejoy, rome, etc. commuter rail would ideally have two connection points— one as it comes into the inner suburbs, and one central station downtown.
this would mean that MARTA rail would be a flexible system that criss-crosses the metro between major job centers rather than a spoked system.
commuter rail would remain a spoked system with a major terminal downtown, but every line would have a station at an outer MARTA rail line before it went downtown.
this means that if you're coming from gainesville, you would have the option of getting off at a potential perimeter MARTA line, so you could head west directly to cobb rather than having to go straight downtown and back up to cobb.
i don't see clayton commuter rail as a long term-solution, i think it will probably get replaced with light or heavy rail at some point. i do think that it is a good way for MARTA to get its foot in the door regarding commuter rail and will eventually be converted to a long-distance line instead of a local line serving clayton.
There were GDOT studies for both passenger rail and also NW cooridor high-speed rail studies, so yes, there were studies.
Cobb and Cumberland CID has done studies of both BRT and LRT, and they all connect to Arts Center in their alternatives analysis.
We've always been good at getting the studies done. Just typically nothing beyond that point.
No sir.
Not for your post that I was replying to when I said that.
There are no studies to have commuter rail from Cobb and not go downtown, but go to another track to just reach the new Amtrak station. That is what I was replying to.
That has not been apart of anything.
In the mid 90s they had loose plans to do commuter rail all over town, but the Cobb branches have not gone anywhere and are often removed from large region-wide system plans... like concept3.
There is much much more back from the freight companies on those corridors. For comparison the rail line through Clayton is very lightly used. NS, in particular, has pretty much said that is impossible to go that side of town without much more expensive improvements.
There are some old GDOT maps about freight rail in GA that show how many trains and how much tonnage is moved across different rail roads. They took them off their website, but you can still Google them sometimes. The results are really telling and its affected region-wide planning quite a bit.
thanks— but maybe i haven't been entirely clear on what i've been talking about. i think MARTA rail should use a flexible system that connects cobb to north fulton, perimeter center to gwinnett, etc.
commuter rail, i think, is best to serve areas that are far outside atlanta, such as macon, gainesville, athens, newnan, lovejoy, rome, etc. commuter rail would ideally have two connection points— one as it comes into the inner suburbs, and one central station downtown.
this would mean that MARTA rail would be a flexible system that criss-crosses the metro between major job centers rather than a spoked system.
commuter rail would remain a spoked system with a major terminal downtown, but every line would have a station at an outer MARTA rail line before it went downtown.
this means that if you're coming from gainesville, you would have the option of getting off at a potential perimeter MARTA line, so you could head west directly to cobb rather than having to go straight downtown and back up to cobb.
i don't see clayton commuter rail as a long term-solution, i think it will probably get replaced with light or heavy rail at some point. i do think that it is a good way for MARTA to get its foot in the door regarding commuter rail and will eventually be converted to a long-distance line instead of a local line serving clayton.
Good comments.
Because so many people commute to job centers outside of Central Atlanta in places like Cobb, North Fulton and Gwinnett, I like the idea of connecting Cartersville in the I-75 NW Corridor with Gainesville in the I-85/I-985 NW Corridor with a self-funded high-capacity passenger rail transit line (a hybrid regional HRT/commuter rail line) on dedicated passenger rail tracks by way of the heavily-congested stretch of the Top End I-285 Perimeter between Cumberland Mall, Perimeter Center and the Doraville MARTA Station.
I also like the idea of running self-funded high-capacity passenger rail transit lines (hybrid HRT/commuter rail) on dedicated passenger rail tracks from outlying points on the Northside (Dallas, Cartersville, Canton, Cumming, Gainesville, Athens, etc) through the proposed MMPT at Five Points in Downtown Atlanta to terminate at the world-leading Atlanta Airport (at either the Domestic Terminal on the west side of the airport or the International Terminal on the east side of the airport).
I also like the idea of running a self-funded high-capacity passenger rail transit line (hybrid HRT/commuter rail) from the Southside (from outlying areas like Newnan, Griffin and Locust Grove) through the proposed MMPT at Five Points to major job centers on the Northside in Gwinnett, North Fulton and Cobb Counties.
...For example, north-south self-funded high-capacity passenger rail transit lines would operate through Central Atlanta between Locust Grove-Cartersville, Griffin-Cumming, Newnan-Gainesville, ATL Airport-Athens, Griffin-Canton (...regional commuter rail service would operate between Atlanta and outlying points like Warner Robins/Macon; Chattanooga (by way of both Cartersville/Dalton and Dallas/Rome); Blue Ridge; Columbus; Auburn, AL; Clemson, SC)...
...While east-west self-funded high-capacity passenger rail transit lines would operate through Central Atlanta between Villa Rica-Covington, Dallas-Covington, ATL Airport-Dallas (...with regional commuter rail service operating between Atlanta and outlying points like Anniston, AL and Greensboro, GA).
Bus Rapid Transit and express buses would fill-in service gaps in areas unable to be served by high-capacity passenger rail transit (...like, for example, between the I-20 East Corridor and the Atlanta Airport, across the GA 92/140 and GA 120 corridors through the Northern suburbs, etc).
Some major arterial routes would be upgraded to managed arterials with variably-tolled grade separations at major junctions to help BRT and express buses operate faster and more efficiently on corridors like GA 92/140, GA 120 and GA 141.
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