MARTA to South Cobb Improvement District? (Atlanta, Marietta: apartment complex, how much, homes)

[netdragon]

Here's the map of what I'm proposing. I was very careful that the route does not knock down Cascade skating rink, but does use the empty for-sale lot next to it for a MARTA station, assuming that hasn't been sold yet. The solid blue line is existing MARTA, and the dotted is new.

Originally Posted by MattCW

If the CID could pay the complete capital and operations costs of the extension, I could actually see it happening. But I don't think you could get the rail to Thornton Road since that's outside the CID and Cobb County entirely, probably the best we could hope for is a P&R at Six Flags.

Yep, I didn't at first realize Thornton Rd is Douglas County right there (Cobb doesn't start until well North of I-20 on Thornton Rd) which is giving me second thoughts about Thornton Rd. I guess a station could be built right inside of Cobb County there, about a 1/4 mile away with a road to Thornton, but I don't see the South Cobb Improvement District footing the bill for a Douglas County MARTA. Douglas would probably have to join MARTA, which isn't going to happen.

Originally Posted by waronxmas

What does Fulton, Dekalb, and the City of Atlanta get out of this? An extra stop to a rundown business park, easier access to Six Flags, and all of the ongoing costs. As a Fulton County resident, I would not be in favor of paying the tax for such a trade off, so no thanks. Especially for a county doesn't seem fit to put their residents on a equal footing as I when it comes to paying for infrastructure.

You're looking at this backwards. Assuming the CID covers some of the infrastructure cost of expansion using bonds from sales tax money, this is basically giving MARTA disproportionately more sales tax money for running the blue line a little further. MARTA should also be expanding to Fulton Industrial and Brown anyway, so the cost inside of Fulton is really something that should have been done already. If you look at it that way, we're really only talking about MARTA covering the cost of crossing the river.

another way to help pay for an extension of the MARTA Blue Line west to Six Flags would be for MARTA to partner with the South Cobb CID and its commercial property owners and participating commercial property owners along the path of the proposal MARTA Blue HRT Line extension to raise money from the private sector (by selling shares in MARTA real estate futures, aggressively selling large and small private sponsorships and actively soliciting donations from large and small private sources, etc) to buy properties in the area and lease them out for the construction of new development (commercial, industrial and residential) that will generate the amount of revenue that will be needed to pay the entire cost of extending the MARTA Blue HRT Line from its current western terminus at Hamilton E. Holmes to a new revenue-generating mixed-use TOD station at Six Flags.

I think this could work here. Land isn't necessarily cheap, but there's a lot of empty forested land along the potential MARTA route in and amongst light industrial like Google's server farm.

[Born 2 Roll]

Originally Posted by netdragon

Here's the map of what I'm proposing. I was very careful that the route does not knock down Cascade skating rink, but does use the empty for-sale lot next to it for a MARTA station, assuming that hasn't been sold yet. The solid blue line is existing MARTA, and the dotted is new.

That's a good map.

But a better routing option might be move the site of the Brownlee-Boulder Park Station east to the current site of the West Ridge Shopping Center (the Wayfield Foods-anchored shopping center on the southeast corner of Martin Luther King Jr Drive & Lynhurst Drive) and route the HRT line along the GA Highway 139 Martin Luther King Jr Drive right-of-way to new revenue-generating mixed-use stations at the Adamsville Triangle (the geographical center of the Adamsville community at the intersection of MLK Jr Drive, Fairburn Road & Bakers Ferry Road), Fulton County Airport-Charlie Brown Field and then due west to a new revenue-generating mixed-use station at Six Flags.

Moving the site of the Brownlee-Boulder Park Station east to the current site of the Wayfield Foods-anchored West Ridge Shopping Center would allow the West Ridge Shopping Center south of GA 139 MLK Jr Drive and both the aging Allen Ridge and Sierra Ridge apartment complexes north of MLK and the CSX/AB &C Line to be redeveloped into mixed-use transit-oriented real estate developments that generate revenue to help cover the ongoing capital and operating costs of the extended MARTA Blue HRT Line.

Locating a new station in the area of the Adamsville Triangle would allow the current Collier Heights Plaza Shopping Center on the northeast corner of MLK & Fairburn Road to be redeveloped into a mixed-use transit-oriented development that would also generate revenue to cover ongoing capital and operating costs of the western extension of the MARTA Blue HRT Line.

While locating a new station at Fulton County Airport-Charlie Brown Field on GA 70 Fulton Industrial Boulevard north of GA 139 MLK Jr Drive would also allow for the construction of revenue-generating mixed-use TOD in an area that solely needs it.

In addition to providing critically-needed revenue to cover capital and operating costs from leases on transit-owned real estate at and around future transit stations, routing the MARTA Blue HRT Line extension west along MLK Drive (instead of along Interstate 20) and locating new revenue-generating mixed-use stations at West Ridge Shopping Center, the Adamsville Triangle and in front of Fulton County Airport-Charlie Brown Field would also help to improve and revitalize some areas in serious need of revitalization in the neighborhoods immediately surrounding the future stations.

Originally Posted by netdragon

Yep, I didn't at first realize Thornton Rd is Douglas County right there (Cobb doesn't start until well North of I-20 on Thornton Rd) which is giving me second thoughts about Thornton Rd. I guess a station could be built right inside of Cobb County there, about a 1/4 mile away with a road to Thornton, but I don't see the South Cobb Improvement District footing the bill for a Douglas County MARTA. Douglas would probably have to join MARTA, which isn't going to happen.

A better option than routing the MARTA Blue HRT Line extension to Thornton Road along I-20 west of Six Flags MIGHT (but not necessarily) probably be to turn the route of the MARTA Blue HRT Line extension to the north to connect with the GA 139 Mableton Parkway ROW and continue the line northwest along the GA 139 ROW up to the Mableton village (Downtown Mableton) area where neighborhood leaders are planning to develop a future large-scale TOD village around a future transit station.

From Mableton the MARTA Blue HRT Line extension could then continue west to new higher-capacity, full-service revenue-generating mixed-use transit station developments in historic Downtown Austell, Downtown Lithia Springs, historic Downtown Douglasville and historic Downtown Villa Rica....With lower-capacity partial-service revenue-generating mixed-use transit station developments located along the line extension at Winston, West Douglasville, Burnt Hickory Road, the intersection of GA 6 Thornton Road & US 78-278, Maxham Road/GA 5 Austell Road, West Mableton (at the junction US 78-278 & Old Powder Springs Road) and at the aging Gordon Road Village Shopping Center along GA 139 Mableton Parkway.

Because of the lower-density of development along the I-20 West right-of-way west of Six Flags, it would most likely be best if we ran a BRT (Bus Rapid Transit) line in tolled managed express lanes and special BRT lanes along the I-20 West ROW from the future Six Flags Station west to the Arbor Place Mall/GA Highway 5 area early-on....With the use of Value Capture taxing districts imposed and revenue-generating transit-oriented developments constructed around new BRT stations to finance the cost of the BRT line and tolled managed express lanes along the I-20 West ROW at GA 6 Thornton Road, Lee Road, GA 92 Fairburn Road, Prestley Mill Road/Chapel Hill Road, Arbor Place Mall and GA 5 Bill Arp Road.

Originally Posted by netdragon

You're looking at this backwards. Assuming the CID covers some of the infrastructure cost of expansion using bonds from sales tax money, this is basically giving MARTA disproportionately more sales tax money for running the blue line a little further. MARTA should also be expanding to Fulton Industrial and Brown anyway, so the cost inside of Fulton is really something that should have been done already. If you look at it that way, we're really only talking about MARTA covering the cost of crossing the river.

If we converted from generating operating revenue from the 1% sales tax in Fulton and DeKalb counties to generating revenue from Value Capture taxing districts (CID's, etc), outleases of transit-owned real estate for transit-oriented development, we could abolish the countywide voter referendum-approved 1% sales tax funding setup and just switch to collecting operating revenues from Value Capture taxing districts and transit-owned real estate development along transit lines, the aggressive sales of large and small private sponsorships, and the active solicitations for large and small private donations.

Originally Posted by netdragon

I think this could work here. Land isn't necessarily cheap, but there's a lot of empty forested land along the potential MARTA route in and amongst light industrial like Google's server farm.

Using the private investment and real estate development funding approach of transit, not only would we necessarily just be buying empty land for the development of revenue-generating development, but we also would be partnering with existing commercial property owners in already-developed corridors to collect Value Capture taxes from CID's, help existing property owners find revenue-generating tenants (in exchange for portion of the profits to go towards paying for the new transit infrastructure), and buy properties from non-participating commercial property owners in already-developed corridors.

[bu2]

Originally Posted by netdragon

As you may know, metro Atlanta has another community improvement district - the South Cobb Improvement District, around Six Flags. A mostly commercial and light-industrial area with a small tract of dense residential North of I-20 along Six Flags Dr.




I'm contacting Cobb representatives floating the idea of expanding MARTA rail only to this district from the Holmes station to Thornton Rd just South of I-20. My thought is that basically only this district would get MARTA for now, and as such Cobb could possibly negotiate with MARTA such that only this district pays MARTA sales taxes, and only this district votes on it, avoiding it being a Cobb-wide mess especially during a time when the BRT discussion is going on. The blue line could be continued along Martin Luther King Jr blvd then along I-20 right after the I-285/I-20 interchange then first hit Riverside Pkwy then Six Flags then end at Thornton Rd. MARTA could also make a short spur from this extension to Brown Airfield. This would be about 6-7 miles from the Hamilton E Holmes station to Riverside Pkwy, then Six Flags and another mile to Thornton Rd at I-20.

Considering that the Six Flags area is the lowest-performing office district in the metro, and trying to improve value, I think that this area could benefit from stuff going on around downtown and maybe pick up some of the growth from it, and maybe benefit from some of the gentrification since this area isn't too much different than intown SW neighborhoods.

It could ultimately connect this part of South Cobb with Cumberland via MARTA's Five Points station. I think this would be a plus, since it'd be very tough to connect Cumberland and South Cobb area here without going through Atlanta. Most of the arterial between these areas in Cobb are already maxed out and rail along I-285 becomes a major project.

What thoughts/ideas do you have about this? Also, do you have specific insight on whether MARTA would accept a sales tax only in a certain portion of Cobb? I think it'd be a good strategic move for MARTA to get a foothold there, and it'd increase their ridership on the blue line. What do you think?

The preferred alternative for the west line extension was MLK, dead ending at 285 with a light rail running along I-20 to Charlie Brown. Basically, the MLK neighborhood wanted MARTA near, but not through them. The Fulton Industrial District wanted service. One of the alternatives was to run HRT along I-20 to Charlie Brown that would just hit the fringe of the neighborhood.

Seems to me the preferred alternative was the worst of both worlds. Running MARTA right up to a neighborhood that was dead set against it running through it makes no sense. You limit future expansion.

So the idea to eventually get to Cobb would be the other alternative, running MARTA parallel to I-20 with a stop at MLK and I-20 and a stop at Charlie Brown Airport.

[mattee01]

Originally Posted by MattCW

No railroads run along the corridor. Nice try though.

It was. Too bad you would rather be rude than notice sarcasm.

[netdragon]

Originally Posted by Born 2 Roll

Moving the site of the Brownlee-Boulder Park Station east to the current site of the Wayfield Foods-anchored West Ridge Shopping Center would allow the West Ridge Shopping Center south of GA 139 MLK Jr Drive and both the aging Allen Ridge and Sierra Ridge apartment complexes north of MLK and the CSX/AB &C Line to be redeveloped into mixed-use transit-oriented real estate developments that generate revenue to help cover the ongoing capital and operating costs of the extended MARTA Blue HRT Line.

I was thinking about that originally, then realized that so many people go to Cascade from Atlanta that if the station were not right at the interchange, people would be walking on a road that's pretty poor for pedestrian traffic to get to the Cascade skating rink. I also didn't want the Adamsville Center or residential neighborhoods to be carved up by MARTA and especially anyone to lose their homes. I figured the center would spread over to the new station more fully since it has sort of spread there already and the character of the Adamsville Center wouldn't be broken up or destroyed.

Originally Posted by Born 2 Roll

Locating a new station in the area of the Adamsville Triangle would allow the current Collier Heights Plaza Shopping Center on the northeast corner of MLK & Fairburn Road to be redeveloped into a mixed-use transit-oriented development that would also generate revenue to cover ongoing capital and operating costs of the western extension of the MARTA Blue HRT Line.

I can see how redevelopment would be more beneficial than new development.

Are you basically talking about using redevelopment opportunity for the property owners to fund the ROW acquisition?

Originally Posted by Born 2 Roll

up to the Mableton village (Downtown Mableton) area where neighborhood leaders are planning to develop a future large-scale TOD village around a future transit station.

I agree that transit would be good up there, though that would turn it from a CID bond-funding decision to a county referendum, which would probably not pass. Additionally, LRT is more appropriate for Mableton Pkwy than HRT in character, because it's mostly medium-density residential, and I think the Mableton Improvement Coalition would push for LRT over HRT anyway. They are a very strong, vocal group. Additionally, the TAD (I assume you meant TAD) never went through - the school lawsuit against all TADs in GA killed it before it had a chance to go through. Unlike Belmont Hills and Jonquil Village, which were already passed :-(

What about HRT up Thornton a short distance then up Maxham Rd to meet LRT that goes through the Mableton and Austell centers, maybe ultimately connecting to Smyrna and the West Village area in some way or another someday (probably Riverview Rd or Oakdale Rd), and connecting to Marietta via LRT on Austell Rd? Basically, a big commuter-style station would be where Maxham Rd meets Veteran's Memorial, with LRT changeovers. It's already separated grade, and I think it's perfect for handling traffic.

Originally Posted by Born 2 Roll

Using the private investment and real estate development funding approach of transit, not only would we necessarily just be buying empty land for the development of revenue-generating development, but we also would be partnering with existing commercial property owners in already-developed corridors to collect Value Capture taxes from CID's, help existing property owners find revenue-generating tenants (in exchange for portion of the profits to go towards paying for the new transit infrastructure), and buy properties from non-participating commercial property owners in already-developed corridors.

If you were the CID approaching a land owner for that, how would you pitch it?

[cqholt]

I'm suggesting that this district, the one that would actually benefit, collect the 1% sales tax and that both this district and MARTA partner to get the extension built. The rest of Cobb wouldn't benefit from a station there. There'd be enough sales tax coming from this district, especially with Six Flags there, to be of benefit to MARTA. Don't you think MARTA may want to use it to get a foothold in Cobb County, especially with a relative low-distance extension being all that's needed to collect that extra sales tax?

Cumberland would be the first area in Cobb County to do this.

I'm suggesting that this district, the one that would actually benefit, collect the 1% sales tax and that both this district and MARTA partner to get the extension built. The rest of Cobb wouldn't benefit from a station there. There'd be enough sales tax coming from this district, especially with Six Flags there, to be of benefit to MARTA. Don't you think MARTA may want to use it to get a foothold in Cobb County, especially with a relative low-distance extension being all that's needed to collect that extra sales tax?

How much could this run-down part of Cobb County generate? Not enough to pay for a $100M/mile extension. The only way I could see is if the CID funded bonds to pay for the extension, but they would also have to help pay for the part of the line in Fulton county.

[waronxmas]

While some of the ideas on how to fund building this extension make sense, no one yet has stated a way to manage the long term capital costs. The MARTA sales tax is a solid, binding, long term solution. TADs or bond sales can only go so far (as we're seeing with the Beltline.)

[therealpattman]

Rapid transit is a very expensive undertaking. MARTA should have expanded during its earlier days, by now it could have rivaled the METRO in DC. The only two options for relieving traffic in metro Atlanta is A) Build a second outer perimeter or at the very least build a northern bypass for the Top End of I-285 or B) Expand MARTA to the outer suburbs. Each is very expensive and comes with pros and con's. I think for Atlanta to truly prosper in the next few decades, a radical change in mindset and a greater trust for the local government must happen. If not cities such as Raleigh and Richmond could get the jump on Atlanta with a more superior network of infrastructure.

[cqholt]

Originally Posted by dpatt.marine1

Rapid transit is a very expensive undertaking. MARTA should have expanded during its earlier days, by now it could have rivaled the METRO in DC. The only two options for relieving traffic in metro Atlanta is A) Build a second outer perimeter or at the very least build a northern bypass for the Top End of I-285 or B) Expand MARTA to the outer suburbs. Each is very expensive and comes with pros and con's. I think for Atlanta to truly prosper in the next few decades, a radical change in mindset and a greater trust for the local government must happen. If not cities such as Raleigh and Richmond could get the jump on Atlanta with a more superior network of infrastructure.

MARTA can not operate outside of the counties that pay the sales tax, except for special cases; eg: 201 to Six Flags, Airport Station, and 12 to Cumberland.

[cqholt]

Originally Posted by netdragon

Here's the map of what I'm proposing. I was very careful that the route does not knock down Cascade skating rink, but does use the empty for-sale lot next to it for a MARTA station, assuming that hasn't been sold yet. The solid blue line is existing MARTA, and the dotted is new.







Yep, I didn't at first realize Thornton Rd is Douglas County right there (Cobb doesn't start until well North of I-20 on Thornton Rd) which is giving me second thoughts about Thornton Rd. I guess a station could be built right inside of Cobb County there, about a 1/4 mile away with a road to Thornton, but I don't see the South Cobb Improvement District footing the bill for a Douglas County MARTA. Douglas would probably have to join MARTA, which isn't going to happen.



You're looking at this backwards. Assuming the CID covers some of the infrastructure cost of expansion using bonds from sales tax money, this is basically giving MARTA disproportionately more sales tax money for running the blue line a little further. MARTA should also be expanding to Fulton Industrial and Brown anyway, so the cost inside of Fulton is really something that should have been done already. If you look at it that way, we're really only talking about MARTA covering the cost of crossing the river.



I think this could work here. Land isn't necessarily cheap, but there's a lot of empty forested land along the potential MARTA route in and amongst light industrial like Google's server farm.

I'd rather see an Adamsville station near the Allen Temple apartments. More density, shopping center available for redevelopment, and the rec center is close by.