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I think if it went to court they would flat out lose. The HOA doesn't own the streets. Now the county could pass an ordinance as they do own the streets.
I suspect that this is the case as well, the HOA cannot enforce restrictions on public streets. However, unless you are an attorney, the time/cost of going through with a lawsuit over such a minor problem will be astronomical relative to the issue at hand.
Clean out / rearrange your garage so that your cars are fully swappable and your issues are completely solved without going nuclear on your neighbors or running up tens of thousands in legal bills.
Otherwise deal with the minor inconvenience or move to a non HOA neighborhood.
For starters, I am dealing with a similar, although different situation.
I live in an HOA community and look downhill across my neighbor's house and yard to a lake beyond. He has direct access to the lake; I do not, just to paint a picture. I have a view.
Our covenants speak to the issue of vehicles, trailers, recreational vehicles (not specifically boats) as well as garbage cans being out of site. This past summer I looked out on his empty boat trailer parked by the side of the street on his lawn. Now, the boat is out of the water and boat and trailer sit on his side lawn, within a dozen feet of the street--sideways/parallel to the street. His trash cans sit along side his garage, in full view of the street, and more personally, me!
So, this past weekend I spoke with him in a neighborly way about the "view" including the broadside of his ski boat, and the trash cans. I was somewhat astonished that there was no contriteness nor apology, but rather his message was "there is no need to be a nit-picking neighbor." The whole concept, aside from the specific "legality" of the covenants, of being a decent neighbor and "acting in accordance with community standards" was completely absent in his response. (So, as an aside I can grin and bear it, or become a prik with the HOA until they intervene).
My question to you, OP (and I understand your "operational" issue) is have you considered the "community", the intention of the covenant (presumably to keep cars neatly/safely off the streets), and message that it sends by your "failure to comply"?
I am not trying to be rude, nor snarky, but trying to understand, much as in my situation, how someone with a problem takes the view that his personal issue trumps the community guidelines. You, and my neighbor, obviously are smart enough to understand that you live in an HOA community, understand the rules, and take the view that your issue should allow for a waiver of the rules.
If everyone took that view, then why live in an HOA community? I am just curious why your personal issue overrides the issues of the greater community. Have you thought about it? And if you have, how did you conclude that your issue of shuffling cars was more important than keeping the greater community neat/safe etc.?
Trust me, I get "all" sides, and am just looking for some insight. My neighbor basically told me to "F" off. Clearly we saw the issue as being very different. I will move before I choose to be a PIA, but that isn't right either.
I don't have much help to offer you. You aren't doing anything illegal, but the HOA that you are a member of can fine you.
This particular issue is one I really don't like about HOAs. It is also one reason I will be almost completely dismissive of Ted Bear's misguided reply to you.
The flaw to this particular type of rule is it is a one-size fits all policy. You're actually just at the tip of the ice-berg. This rule is often easy for young families, people with no kids, and people with you kids to comply with. However, wait until your kids can drive, when they come home from college in the summer, and possibly post-college for awhile. If you have several kids within a few years of each other the need to park more cars goes up quickly. It will become a hassle quickly and in some cases... impossible to comply with.
Over time it just takes one passive-aggressive neighbor to not be understanding or try to work with you to address any needs/concerns or the neighbor who is just white-and-black over analytical on rules.
So my story has a somewhat better scenario, but this still left a sore spot me. Due to family reasons I don't want to dive into online, my family has some atypical needs in order to watch after other family members. It led to more adults than normal living at my parents house, which purchased a larger home to fit the needs. There are many others out there and the stories are all different.... aging parents, special needs adults, nurses for special need kids, mental illness, etc... These things all exist. When they do it takes a toll on the family, but frequently it causes some family members to come together to help. More often or not, you can't even tell. It is often nice, normal people dealing with a situation the best they can/
In this scenario my parents looked for a home that was quite large and fit the their needs. They made sure there were no covenants on the parking.
Turns out the covenants expired just a year earlier. One thing we noticed was many of the newcomers to the neighborhood, although not all, were in a similar situation where they had more than 2 cars. They were older families and were not empty nesters yet. Many did park on the street here and there. A year later the neighborhood renewed the covenant and wisely did not include parking rules.
However, our neighbors printed a little neighborhood newsletter and some of our other neighbors acted as the original covenants were left in place. There was frequently a passive-aggressive comments made in the newsletter on several issues, including parking, about us (without naming us. it was just between us and them). One car also got a series of unsigned notes left on the windshield. Sadly, we never knew who and no one ever actually bothered to talk to us. It was really difficult to come to a resolution that way.
I have another friend who is in a new neighborhood, with covenants still in place. Similar issues. Theirs are worse and actually mandate garage parking overnight. It has been a huge hassle for them. It is a similar issue. The neighborhood is mostly families with young kids. Most people have 2 cars... on occasion 3. However, they have adult children. One lives at home and others out of town, but visit (overnight) frequently during the year. There is nowhere to park. What is interesting is they can all fit on the driveway, but get HOA violation notices all the time.
The problem was the policy is crafted with a single idea of who should live in the neighborhood and gives families no room for growth or for their situations to change. If you mix in passive aggressive neighbors, over analytical by the rules types, or strict enforcement there are actually many families out there who can't fully comply with these particular rules. More troublesome is the rules give ammunition and power to people who are naturally judgmental people within the community.
What I find interesting with your story is you don't really need the extra parking yet, you're running into problems through lifestyle choices alone (ie. Nanny and I'm assuming work habits). Wait until your kids get older if they are still trying to be strict then.
What is funny is ... life happens... Even many of these people accusing you of breaking rules will likely have a period of their lives in the distant future where they can't comply with the rules. I wonder if they will feel compelled to move...
Ted,
I actually side with you on your issue about the boat. Many people rent spaces in storage unit chains just for such a thing, however the rest of your reply in the context of the OP. Puh-lease... You mention the dynamic of personal needs vs community needs. The ultimate problem is if a traditional family can't live their lives in a fairly normal way... something is wrong with community needs. We all have guests, extended families, kids that actually age, issues that come up in life, etc... If someone moves into a neighborhood rules an help dictate community guidelines, but if a rule is so confining that it greatly impacts as family as it ages in place or impacts basic day-to-day needs/activities... then something is seriously wrong with the dynamic.
Time and time again... its always this parking issue that causes the most problems.
I actually side with you on your issue about the boat. Many people rent spaces in storage unit chains just for such a thing, however the rest of your reply in the context of the OP. Puh-lease... You mention the dynamic of personal needs vs community needs. The ultimate problem is if a traditional family can't live their lives in a fairly normal way... something is wrong with community needs. We all have guests, extended families, kids that actually age, issues that come up in life, etc... If someone moves into a neighborhood rules an help dictate community guidelines, but if a rule is so confining that it greatly impacts as family as it ages in place or impacts basic day-to-day needs/activities... then something is seriously wrong with the dynamic.
Time and time again... its always this parking issue that causes the most problems.
Okay....so there is an answer: As family needs change, the community needs to change. As the kids grow up, there might be cars on the street on a regular basis, for example, and the community needs to adapt. It isn't reasonable for a "family" with these dynamics to think about living in a community where there are lots of children, cars, family activities?
Guests, visitors, the occasional need to put a car in the street because someone needs to get out early, etc. I get that. But, why have the rules (and the fees) if they are only to be observed if the situation fits? Otherwise, just ignore them.
My issue is not the subject of the thread...i just used it as an example...but my neighbor basically said any attempt to discuss holding people to the covenants which we all signed, and pay fees for through the HOA, is ridiculous. I understand being a good neighbor. I feel like a fool for paying for something which only applies if it is convenient.
Admittedly I am more of a black and white type person. I am glad you responded with the sort of a "gray" area response to remind me, as I have attempted to be, more tolerant and understanding.
I don't have much help to offer you. You aren't doing anything illegal, but the HOA that you are a member of can fine you.
This particular issue is one I really don't like about HOAs. It is also one reason I will be almost completely dismissive of Ted Bear's misguided reply to you.
The flaw to this particular type of rule is it is a one-size fits all policy. You're actually just at the tip of the ice-berg. This rule is often easy for young families, people with no kids, and people with you kids to comply with. However, wait until your kids can drive, when they come home from college in the summer, and possibly post-college for awhile. If you have several kids within a few years of each other the need to park more cars goes up quickly. It will become a hassle quickly and in some cases... impossible to comply with.
Over time it just takes one passive-aggressive neighbor to not be understanding or try to work with you to address any needs/concerns or the neighbor who is just white-and-black over analytical on rules.
So my story has a somewhat better scenario, but this still left a sore spot me. Due to family reasons I don't want to dive into online, my family has some atypical needs in order to watch after other family members. It led to more adults than normal living at my parents house, which purchased a larger home to fit the needs. There are many others out there and the stories are all different.... aging parents, special needs adults, nurses for special need kids, mental illness, etc... These things all exist. When they do it takes a toll on the family, but frequently it causes some family members to come together to help. More often or not, you can't even tell. It is often nice, normal people dealing with a situation the best they can/
In this scenario my parents looked for a home that was quite large and fit the their needs. They made sure there were no covenants on the parking.
Turns out the covenants expired just a year earlier. One thing we noticed was many of the newcomers to the neighborhood, although not all, were in a similar situation where they had more than 2 cars. They were older families and were not empty nesters yet. Many did park on the street here and there. A year later the neighborhood renewed the covenant and wisely did not include parking rules.
However, our neighbors printed a little neighborhood newsletter and some of our other neighbors acted as the original covenants were left in place. There was frequently a passive-aggressive comments made in the newsletter on several issues, including parking, about us (without naming us. it was just between us and them). One car also got a series of unsigned notes left on the windshield. Sadly, we never knew who and no one ever actually bothered to talk to us. It was really difficult to come to a resolution that way.
I have another friend who is in a new neighborhood, with covenants still in place. Similar issues. Theirs are worse and actually mandate garage parking overnight. It has been a huge hassle for them. It is a similar issue. The neighborhood is mostly families with young kids. Most people have 2 cars... on occasion 3. However, they have adult children. One lives at home and others out of town, but visit (overnight) frequently during the year. There is nowhere to park. What is interesting is they can all fit on the driveway, but get HOA violation notices all the time.
The problem was the policy is crafted with a single idea of who should live in the neighborhood and gives families no room for growth or for their situations to change. If you mix in passive aggressive neighbors, over analytical by the rules types, or strict enforcement there are actually many families out there who can't fully comply with these particular rules. More troublesome is the rules give ammunition and power to people who are naturally judgmental people within the community.
What I find interesting with your story is you don't really need the extra parking yet, you're running into problems through lifestyle choices alone (ie. Nanny and I'm assuming work habits). Wait until your kids get older if they are still trying to be strict then.
What is funny is ... life happens... Even many of these people accusing you of breaking rules will likely have a period of their lives in the distant future where they can't comply with the rules. I wonder if they will feel compelled to move...
Ted,
I actually side with you on your issue about the boat. Many people rent spaces in storage unit chains just for such a thing, however the rest of your reply in the context of the OP. Puh-lease... You mention the dynamic of personal needs vs community needs. The ultimate problem is if a traditional family can't live their lives in a fairly normal way... something is wrong with community needs. We all have guests, extended families, kids that actually age, issues that come up in life, etc... If someone moves into a neighborhood rules an help dictate community guidelines, but if a rule is so confining that it greatly impacts as family as it ages in place or impacts basic day-to-day needs/activities... then something is seriously wrong with the dynamic.
Time and time again... its always this parking issue that causes the most problems.
Well expressed. Especially about the 'no room for growth'
Okay....so there is an answer: As family needs change, the community needs to change. As the kids grow up, there might be cars on the street on a regular basis, for example, and the community needs to adapt. It isn't reasonable for a "family" with these dynamics to think about living in a community where there are lots of children, cars, family activities?
Guests, visitors, the occasional need to put a car in the street because someone needs to get out early, etc. I get that. But, why have the rules (and the fees) if they are only to be observed if the situation fits? Otherwise, just ignore them.
My issue is not the subject of the thread...i just used it as an example...but my neighbor basically said any attempt to discuss holding people to the covenants which we all signed, and pay fees for through the HOA, is ridiculous. I understand being a good neighbor. I feel like a fool for paying for something which only applies if it is convenient.
Admittedly I am more of a black and white type person. I am glad you responded with the sort of a "gray" area response to remind me, as I have attempted to be, more tolerant and understanding.
One thought is, given your beautiful view without paying top dollar for waterfront, your property sounds attractive on paper. So, when going to sell, what will the buyer think of the view from your home? Will that effect any sale or your home or homes nearby?
This and cwkimbro's examples are why HOAs need to have their leashes yanked hard if not outright abolished, at least as far as their power over others. HOAs are nothing more than privatized government without the oversight and regulations!
Okay....so there is an answer: As family needs change, the community needs to change. As the kids grow up, there might be cars on the street on a regular basis, for example, and the community needs to adapt. It isn't reasonable for a "family" with these dynamics to think about living in a community where there are lots of children, cars, family activities?
Actually Ted, I find that highly reasonable for a family to think about moving into such a place.... especially when many areas throughout town are dominated by suburban developments of the same type. What I find unreasonable is you need to put "family" in quotes as if you are doubting they are a family?
It would unreasonably limit many of these normal families who are dealing situations. For many when they buy a house they don't know they will be at first. Families grow.. sometimes in ways you can predict and sometimes in ways you can't predict.
I also think you phrase such a question that way you are making many poor assumptions on the need to keep families away from other families, children, cars, etc... It is a normal part of life. People build communities and yes aging parents and people with all sorts of different types of mental and physical impairments are naturally a part of communities. There are some extremes where people need to be separated, but you ever actually saw and experienced it first hand you would realize it is few and far between.
As far as a community needing to adapt... that is just silly. When a new neighborhood is constructed... should it be only for people about the same age and same age kids to buy into?
That isn't how the real world works. Most communities have different people and families of different ages. It would be interesting to see neighborhood covenants that said... alright no one can have teenager for at least 10 years... when your kids grow up... we will adapt for teens then. No way... any neighborhood nice for families will have a mix of teens, babies and everything in between. There will always be a couple of college kids in the summer or possibly one going to college on a budget and being a commuter student. Therefore whenever people who lead or form an HOA get together to address covenants, they can't just use to create rules that aren't generally applicable to all people. It sounds more like a system where the majority type of a neighborhood can always adversely affect the minority. God forbid your kids are on average 6 or 7 years older than the neighborhood average. Instead you have to create rules that are already adaptable for most situations for the life cycle of a family.
It is one thing to have rules on beautification and maintenance, but its different when rules are created that place large burdens as families age or address common problems that arise within families.
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