City of South DeKalb (Decatur, Clarkston: land, annex, venue)

[bu2]

Originally Posted by skbl17

That South DeKalb map is unwieldy and the definition of being "a city just for the sake of being a city", and I say that as a former South DeKalb resident. I'd rather see the existing cities in the area (Lithonia, Decatur, Avondale Estates, Pine Lake, Atlanta, and Stone Mountain) annex the peripheries and one or two areas with defined or quasi-defined borders (Redan, Panthersville, etc.) incorporate.

In the long run, I'd rather see the General Assembly take on local government reform, but maybe that's just a crazy idea.

- skbl17

They definitely need to apply some logic to it. The borders are kind of tortured inside 285 where it borders the city of Atlanta, although the Memorial Drive line makes some sense.

But I'm not sure there's enough to support a city. There's limited retail and commercial, a fair amount of vacant land and not a lot of high value houses.

[jero23]

Originally Posted by Saintmarks

Nobody has to google to find out that Atlanta area counties do the same thing. But the DC metro area is the only one that resembles Atlanta on a map, with huge swaths of built up suburban areas that are completely unincorporated as cities.

True, and they aren't pulling out their hair to incorporate into a bunch of piecemeal, dysfunctional fiefdoms called "cities". The Washington DC urbanized area spans across 2 politically and administratively different states.

Get your Rand McNally out, almost every square inch of Los Angeles County is either in the city of LA or one of the burbs.

Wrong... Los Angeles County, California - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia There is nearly 2 million inhabitants in Los Angeles County (10 million inhabitants in total) that reside in the unincorporated areas and has municipal services provided by the county gov't. Centennial is a new planned community in unincorporated northern L.A. County and it once its built out it will be able to house 70,000 new residents.

The same is true of Dade county, very little unincorporated area from Homestead to West Palm Beach. Almost all developed area is in one city or another.

Wrong, again...List of communities in Miami-Dade County, Florida - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia Nearly, 862,000 inhabitants of Miami-Dade County reside in unincorporated areas, so that's about a third of the county population.

Jefferson county is not a good example either, Hoover and Vestavia have subdivided most of south Jefferson county between themselves, Trussville has annexed to the northeast, Center Point, Pinson and Clay have all incorporated in the last decade. Alabama, unlike Georgia, allows cities to establish school systems independent from the county, one of the main reasons these cities have expanded or incorporated.

Pause! There are 137,000 inhabitants of Jefferson County that reside in the unincorporated areas, and the county population is 660,000. You do the math. FYI, Hoover and Vestavia Hills did not divide up most of southern Jefferson County. You forgot about Mountain Brook, Homewood, and Birmingham itself, but they only control nearly everything within the I-459 belt. There is a huge unincorporated area that is rapidly developing southwestern Jefferson County called "McCalla" where Bo Jackson is originally from and all its municipal services are provided by Jefferson County.

Another thing, all those "new" cities like Clay, Center Point, Pinson, etc. couldn't even afford their own police department or planning and zoning. These cities are only boundaries and elected officials only because all of them only own their own parks and libraries. I used to work for Jefferson County Commission and they provided all those aformentioned municipal services to those "cities". The "new city" movement in Greater Birmingham ended when the residents of McCalla were trying to form their own city and realized that Pinson, Clay, Center Point, etc. couldn't even afford their own municipal services. I'm not even going to get started on Forestdale... Sorry, but no cigar because the municipalization of an urbanized area costs too much according to your neighborhoods in Greater Birmingham.

This trend started in Fulton when all of North Fulton incorporated (Sandy Springs, Milton, Johns Creek) into new cities or were annexed into existing cities (Roswell, Alpharetta). At the same time Chattahoochee Hills incorporated in South Fulton and Union City, Palmetto, East Point and Fairburn all had sizeable annexations as the remainder of South Fulton looked to incorporate and they didn't want to be hemmed in. The movement popped up in DeKalb next with the incorporation of Dunwoody and Brookhaven and Chamblee almost doubling in size thru annexations. The current movement is under debate as it looks like Tucker and some combination of Briarcliff/Lakeside/Lavista Hills (is that the latest working name?) are ready to be established and the other DeKalb cities are looking at sizeable annexations for the first time in decades (if ever).

All that to say that the citizens are finally saying that counties don't do a good job at being cities, that cities need to do the job of being cities. That other counties in the country might (or might not) offer some form of services is neither here nor there. It HAS been the status quo for decades in metro Atlanta and it is finally being seen to be an antiquated system that needs to go.

Nope, people in DeKalb County should get out in vote and hold the horrible county commissioners accountable for their actions (or inaction). Problem solved. Creating new fiefdoms is only going to create new and unnecessary problems...

[Saintmarks]

Originally Posted by jero23

True, and they aren't pulling out their hair to incorporate into a bunch of piecemeal, dysfunctional fiefdoms called "cities". The Washington DC urbanized area spans across 2 politically and administratively different states.



Wrong... Los Angeles County, California - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia There is nearly 2 million inhabitants in Los Angeles County (10 million inhabitants in total) that reside in the unincorporated areas and has municipal services provided by the county gov't. Centennial is a new planned community in unincorporated northern L.A. County and it once its built out it will be able to house 70,000 new residents.



Wrong, again...List of communities in Miami-Dade County, Florida - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia Nearly, 862,000 inhabitants of Miami-Dade County reside in unincorporated areas, so that's about a third of the county population.



Pause! There are 137,000 inhabitants of Jefferson County that reside in the unincorporated areas, and the county population is 660,000. You do the math. FYI, Hoover and Vestavia Hills did not divide up most of southern Jefferson County. You forgot about Mountain Brook, Homewood, and Birmingham itself, but they only control nearly everything within the I-459 belt. There is a huge unincorporated area that is rapidly developing southwestern Jefferson County called "McCalla" where Bo Jackson is originally from and all its municipal services are provided by Jefferson County.

Another thing, all those "new" cities like Clay, Center Point, Pinson, etc. couldn't even afford their own police department or planning and zoning. These cities are only boundaries and elected officials only because all of them only own their own parks and libraries. I used to work for Jefferson County Commission and they provided all those aformentioned municipal services to those "cities". The "new city" movement in Greater Birmingham ended when the residents of McCalla were trying to form their own city and realized that Pinson, Clay, Center Point, etc. couldn't even afford their own municipal services. I'm not even going to get started on Forestdale... Sorry, but no cigar because the municipalization of an urbanized area costs too much according to your neighborhoods in Greater Birmingham.



Nope, people in DeKalb County should get out in vote and hold the horrible county commissioners accountable for their actions (or inaction). Problem solved. Creating new fiefdoms is only going to create new and unnecessary problems...

The above in bold is enough to tell us all we need to know on your viewpoint. You are making your living off county government. Municipal services should be provided by, low and behold... MUNICIPALITIES! Atlanta is in a mess metro wise because the counties got into the municipal services business years ago and they never should have. Cities should be cities, when an area develops enough to need sidewalks, sewer, water, police, it needs to be a city. Counties should stay in the basic business of counties... provide court and electoral services for its section of the state, provide law protection to rural residents (sheriffs) and little else more than basic maintenance of rural roads.

Fiefdoms? You gotta be kidding me! Oh, yeah, it is going to take away some of your middleman money being in county government that is too big and unwieldy. If Jefferson county had never gotten into the municipal services business, Center Point, Clay and Pinson would have counted the cost of their growth, would have planned years ahead to make sure their area could handle the growth and would have laid out a plan to be financially viable. Instead, they have been on the teat of Jefferson County which is still, I am sure demanding their pound of flesh. If these areas could not be viable, then to develop, they should have sought to be annexed by a city that was viable. If Jefferson was all that, these cities wouldn't have sought to incorporate. The fact that McCalla has looked at incorporating proves my point. That they haven't yet doesn't mean the won't in the future.

I mentioned Hoover and Vestavia because Mountain Brook and Homewood have not annexed large swaths like the other two have. When I was at Samford in the 80s, Hoover was a tiny town centered around 31 and Green Valley Road. Today it is a major burb, has annexed all the way over to 280, all of Bluff Park and west toward McCalla and Bessemer. It now has a population approaching 1/3 of Birmingham itself. If Jefferson were all that, would this be happening?

The same disdain for large, unwieldy county governments has swept Fulton and is now sweeping DeKalb. The citizens are taking their neighborhoods and their property seriously and are establishing cities to better govern themselves. If the county would get out of the municipal services business, it would be easier on all.

I say all this after a lifetime in Atlanta and now a decade in the DFW area. The counties here do not interfere with cities. If an area needs city services, it incorporates or is annexed into a city. No double layer with the county. A MUCH better scenario than metro Atlanta. MUCH BETTER. I don't give a rip if Dade or Montgomery or Prince Albert in a Can county do it better. The double layer is a decades old problem in Atlanta metro that should never have started. It is messy to undo it, but enough Fulton and DeKalb residents have had enough and are taking matters into their own hands. Fiefdoms they may be, but much better than totalitarian monoliths if you want to continue with that silly analogy.

[jero23]

Originally Posted by Saintmarks

The above in bold is enough to tell us all we need to know on your viewpoint. You are making your living off county government. Municipal services should be provided by, low and behold... MUNICIPALITIES! Atlanta is in a mess metro wise because the counties got into the municipal services business years ago and they never should have. Cities should be cities, when an area develops enough to need sidewalks, sewer, water, police, it needs to be a city. Counties should stay in the basic business of counties... provide court and electoral services for its section of the state, provide law protection to rural residents (sheriffs) and little else more than basic maintenance of rural roads.

Fiefdoms? You gotta be kidding me! Oh, yeah, it is going to take away some of your middleman money being in county government that is too big and unwieldy. If Jefferson county had never gotten into the municipal services business, Center Point, Clay and Pinson would have counted the cost of their growth, would have planned years ahead to make sure their area could handle the growth and would have laid out a plan to be financially viable. Instead, they have been on the teat of Jefferson County which is still, I am sure demanding their pound of flesh. If these areas could not be viable, then to develop, they should have sought to be annexed by a city that was viable. If Jefferson was all that, these cities wouldn't have sought to incorporate. The fact that McCalla has looked at incorporating proves my point. That they haven't yet doesn't mean the won't in the future.

I mentioned Hoover and Vestavia because Mountain Brook and Homewood have not annexed large swaths like the other two have. When I was at Samford in the 80s, Hoover was a tiny town centered around 31 and Green Valley Road. Today it is a major burb, has annexed all the way over to 280, all of Bluff Park and west toward McCalla and Bessemer. It now has a population approaching 1/3 of Birmingham itself. If Jefferson were all that, would this be happening?

The same disdain for large, unwieldy county governments has swept Fulton and is now sweeping DeKalb. The citizens are taking their neighborhoods and their property seriously and are establishing cities to better govern themselves. If the county would get out of the municipal services business, it would be easier on all.

I say all this after a lifetime in Atlanta and now a decade in the DFW area. The counties here do not interfere with cities. If an area needs city services, it incorporates or is annexed into a city. No double layer with the county. A MUCH better scenario than metro Atlanta. MUCH BETTER. I don't give a rip if Dade or Montgomery or Prince Albert in a Can county do it better. The double layer is a decades old problem in Atlanta metro that should never have started. It is messy to undo it, but enough Fulton and DeKalb residents have had enough and are taking matters into their own hands. Fiefdoms they may be, but much better than totalitarian monoliths if you want to continue with that silly analogy.

You wrote this dissertation to say what exactly? All you have done with all these semantic anecdotes has just reaffirmed my point that it is just another layer of bureaucracy.

FYI, you don't f**k what you think about the fact that I provided facts, statistics, and proof other major metropolitan areas like Miami-Dade, Los Angeles, and Jefferson counties where it works. All your reluctance to address those facts do is reaffirms my point that is the creation of new municipalities just adds another layer of bureaucracy and county governments doing the same works in practice.

Oh yeah, nice try to deflect the discussion about me, but you won't win an argument with me trying that trite. I argue with facts, stats, and evidence not with personal opinions...

[arjay57]

I don't see an inherent problem with counties providing services such as police, fire, parks, water, sanitation, planning, schools, etc. There's no reason they can't provide those services efficiently and in many cases they do.

Part of the problem we have with counties like Fulton and DeKalb is that they have an entrenched political structure that doesn't want to give up power.

[Gulch]

Originally Posted by arjay57

I don't see an inherent problem with counties providing services such as police, fire, parks, water, sanitation, planning, schools, etc. There's no reason they can't provide those services efficiently and in many cases they do.

True, and for all the crap Cobb County deals with regarding Tim Lee and his B.S., the county does a decent job of providing services to its unincorporated areas.

Part of the problem we have with political entities in general is that they have an entrenched political structure that doesn't want to give up power.

Fixed it for you. Regardless of where you are, duplication of city and county-provided services means twice as many political positions/jobs to dole out, and no one would ever willingly give it all up.

[Saintmarks]

Originally Posted by Gulch

True, and for all the crap Cobb County deals with regarding Tim Lee and his B.S., the county does a decent job of providing services to its unincorporated areas.



Fixed it for you. Regardless of where you are, duplication of city and county-provided services means twice as many political positions/jobs to dole out, and no one would ever willingly give it all up.

I lived in Cobb and it did work well. Point is DeKalb was once the poster child of a well run county and my point in posting is that it can go down hill fast. City governments can go downhill fast as well, but cities are still cities and you just have one level to deal with instead of two. My gripe is counties doing the work of a city but not being a city. The county acting like a city while there are already cities in the county is the extra layer. Consolidate and become a city or get out of the city business. Again, I site DFW. Go to the DFW page, you don't see the constant arguments you see on the Atlanta page about county governments, None. You get the core city vs. suburb arguments, but not to the extent of what you see in Atlanta.

[bu2]

Originally Posted by Saintmarks

I lived in Cobb and it did work well. Point is DeKalb was once the poster child of a well run county and my point in posting is that it can go down hill fast. City governments can go downhill fast as well, but cities are still cities and you just have one level to deal with instead of two. My gripe is counties doing the work of a city but not being a city. The county acting like a city while there are already cities in the county is the extra layer. Consolidate and become a city or get out of the city business. Again, I site DFW. Go to the DFW page, you don't see the constant arguments you see on the Atlanta page about county governments, None. You get the core city vs. suburb arguments, but not to the extent of what you see in Atlanta.

And with cities you have better representation. Counties are usually set up into commissioner's fiefdoms. The more municipal services you put in the county, the more temptation for corruption. Gwinnett, Fulton and DeKalb are all filled with it. I don't think its all that Georgians are more corrupt than people other places. Part of it is the structure.

[Ha-Mez]

I hope they come up with a better name than South DeKalb. Panthersville and Redan are fine names.

[Iconographer]

This will not end well. By that I mean this thread and the cityhood movement.