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I'm not going to write an essay this morning but the relevant information has been posted many times. About 5% of ATL commuters use mass transit. It's easy to see from the chart I posted earlier (from MARTA) how many station entries there are per day. All of these stations could easily handle far more passengers and far more TOD. We all know that many buses cruise around with only a handful of passengers. When's the last time that anyone was excluded from a MARTA train due to overcrowding? And I'll ask folks who live near bus lines and rail stations -- how many of your neighbors take public transit?
We all agree that Atlanta auto traffic, while heavy at rush hour, is hardly cataclysmic. Many big cities (including those with more public transit) have it much worse.
We already have an extensive modern heavy rail system that would cost many, many billions to duplicate. No other city in this part of the world comes even close to what we have. We've supplemented that with a bus fleet of probably 800 buses. We could easily and quickly add more buses and have them rolling within months.
Does this mean we're done with public transit? Of course not. But we are hardly in a crisis that requires instantaneous action without full evaluation of the long term considerations, including funding sources.
Has anyone even asked the business community to pony up some funding? Have they said no?
Those buses are just going to get caught in the congestion and then you'll have bus-bunching. If said buses where given a dedicated lane, then yes it would make a huge difference.
Those buses are just going to get caught in the congestion and then you'll have bus-bunching. If said buses where given a dedicated lane, then yes it would make a huge difference.
Yep, there's plenty to do to improve the situation.
My point is simply that it's not necessary to hit the panic button. These are long term decisions with long term consequences and it makes a lot more sense to get things right from the beginning.
Without further investigation and discussion, why would we categorically give the business community a complete pass on participation in funding?
Are we satisfied with unsupported generalizations like, "Oh, they probably wouldn't do it," or "Well, they'd just pass the cost on to consumers"?
Where is the conversation about this? When did the business community refuse to participate, and why?
Yep, there's plenty to do to improve the situation.
My point is simply that it's not necessary to hit the panic button. These are long term decisions with long term consequences and it makes a lot more sense to get things right from the beginning.
Without further investigation and discussion, why would we categorically give the business community a complete pass on participation in funding?
Are we satisfied with unsupported generalizations like, "Oh, they probably wouldn't do it," or "Well, they'd just pass the cost on to consumers"?
Where is the conversation about this? When did the business community refuse to participate, and why?
We have the opportunity to build LRT on the BeltLine and crosstown connections, why would we not choose tax ourselves and visitors who spend money in the city to build rail to communities with no rail access (Virginia-Highland, Ansley Park, English Ave, Pittsbugh) and some of the our most popular spots (PCM, KSM, Piedmont Park)?
You both have the "goal posts" in entirely different places. Both of these statements would probably be true if we expanded to 300 stations covering the metro.
We would see a huge surge in usage if our network expanded. We would see more medium / long term shifts of people getting rid of their car which would feed back into the loop of businesses ensuring they locate near transit to get customers.
But bu2 has prefaced his "no" with a lot of caveats. Yes, if our huge freeways continued to exist than cars would still be common and able to move around during non-peak hours. Of course we would see car ownership drop and less people choosing to go by car even during non-peak times due to the cost. So really this hypothetical transit expansion benefits people that still drive too.
We aren't going to get NYC level density in the next 50 years (and probably ever). Many more stations would improve ridership during peak hours when congestion was really bad, but wouldn't significantly improve ridership non-peak. Just look at the ratio of peak/non-peak ridership now.
We need to look at where rail really works and remember what rail does well. We just don't have the population to support rail way out into the suburbs in every direction. Rail works better closer in where population is more dense.
Houston's first 7 miles line was 2nd in the nation in ridership per mile around 4,500 per mile. They expanded to 23 miles into less dense residential areas (although still central city) and their system average is now 1,996 per mile. A single DC politician kept them from expanding into denser areas to the west which would have helped this average.
Atlanta's HRT is already in dense midtown and Buckhead. The question is what inner city areas would be well served by rail. Inman Park certainly is an obvious one. Other than that, it would be helpful to see which bus lines generate heavy ridership.
We aren't going to get NYC level density in the next 50 years (and probably ever). Many more stations would improve ridership during peak hours when congestion was really bad, but wouldn't significantly improve ridership non-peak. Just look at the ratio of peak/non-peak ridership now.
We need to look at where rail really works and remember what rail does well. We just don't have the population to support rail way out into the suburbs in every direction. Rail works better closer in where population is more dense.
Houston's first 7 miles line was 2nd in the nation in ridership per mile around 4,500 per mile. They expanded to 23 miles into less dense residential areas (although still central city) and their system average is now 1,996 per mile. A single DC politician kept them from expanding into denser areas to the west which would have helped this average.
Atlanta's HRT is already in dense midtown and Buckhead. The question is what inner city areas would be well served by rail. Inman Park certainly is an obvious one. Other than that, it would be helpful to see which bus lines generate heavy ridership.
Inman Park is already served by a MARTA HRT Station. More like O4W, Virginia-Highland, Ansley Park, Poncy-Highland, English Ave, Ormewood Park, Pittsbugh, Mechanicsville, Peoplestown, etc. Building LRT on the BeltLine, where it will be separate from vehicle traffic will connect so many neighborhoods to rail transit.
We aren't going to get NYC level density in the next 50 years (and probably ever). Many more stations would improve ridership during peak hours when congestion was really bad, but wouldn't significantly improve ridership non-peak. Just look at the ratio of peak/non-peak ridership now.
We need to look at where rail really works and remember what rail does well. We just don't have the population to support rail way out into the suburbs in every direction. Rail works better closer in where population is more dense.
Houston's first 7 miles line was 2nd in the nation in ridership per mile around 4,500 per mile. They expanded to 23 miles into less dense residential areas (although still central city) and their system average is now 1,996 per mile. A single DC politician kept them from expanding into denser areas to the west which would have helped this average.
Atlanta's HRT is already in dense midtown and Buckhead. The question is what inner city areas would be well served by rail. Inman Park certainly is an obvious one. Other than that, it would be helpful to see which bus lines generate heavy ridership.
Midtown's core already has a higher population density than NYC does. So yes, while I agree city-wide we won't get to NYC total density soon, we already have pockets of the city just as dense as NYC. That will only grow. I think some of the predictions of CoA's population doubling in the next few decades are probably correct.
You also are not accounting for broader changes to the way we travel. Car ownership is dropping, "car sharing" is rising and about to take off once self-driving-cars are matured. That will have a snow-ball effect of homes and businesses getting rid of parking as more and more Uber which in turn makes it more appealing and at the same time makes cities denser.
The truth is that roads cannot handle the population sprawl we are seeing in Atlanta. You just cannot add capacity to roads well. If we want to build transportation for the future, we need rail transit which can easily scale up by adding more vehicles to the service (which in turn makes it more appealing by increasing frequency).
38 stations that don't hardly go anywhere at all equals current usage. 300 stations covering the metro and you'd see packed full trains all day.
I get where you're coming from, and I'm absolutely in favor of expanding MARTA throughout the metro area, but I really wish we'd retire the "MARTA doesn't go anywhere" meme.
It's just totally wrong -- many of the most-densely populated (and fastest-growing) neighborhoods of the city have nearby MARTA rail access, not to mention the airport. And repeating that mantra over and over probably discourages, rather than encourages, MARTA adoption in the suburbs; who wants to spend tax money connecting to a system that "goes hardly anywhere"?
The message needs to be that MARTA already connects many interesting places, and we'd like to connect it to more interesting places that currently aren't served.
I'm not going to write an essay this morning but the relevant information has been posted many times. About 5% of ATL commuters use mass transit.
As many times as you've posted what you consider to be relevant information, it's been counter argued.
5% of METRO Atlanta commuters use transit. 10% of Atlanta commuters use transit. That's an important distinction and I'd like you to remember it. Now, what percentage of the population of the metro do you think is within a quarter mile of a transit stop? What percentage of jobs are within a quarter mile of a transit stop? What percentage of the metro population has both their home, and their work within a quarter mile of a transit stop? These are the questions that you should consider.
Without actual context, the 5% and 10% stats are meaningless. It's not a number that reflects actual choice on the metro's part, since, and I'll bet against this, a significant majority of the metro does not live within range of, nor work within range of a transit stop.
That's not even considering the lack of access to high-capacity transit, which is a major deciding factor in using a system. Winding bus routes stuck in traffic help, but aren't going to attract the riders that a dedicated rail line will. We'll talk about that later, though.
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It's easy to see from the chart I posted earlier (from MARTA) how many station entries there are per day. All of these stations could easily handle far more passengers and far more TOD.
And MARTA is ALREADY working on TODs. I have no idea where you get this notion that an agency as large as MARTA can ONLY focus on one or two things at once. It has an entire office taking care of TODs, and is set to have 4 projects break ground within a year or two. We'll most likely see even more projects come into the planning phase as those are being built. MARTA is well aware of TODs, and how to approach them.
As MARTA's TOD work and the general densification of the city continues, we'll see that ridership increase, since, well, more people are around. That is something that's already happening, though, and the best thing MARTA can do to encourage use of their system, is to make sure it goes where people need it to!
For example, the 197,000 jobs the Clifton Corridor would give access to high-capacity transit, or the 190,000 jobs the I-20 East rail expansion would give access to high-capacity transit, or the 203,000 jobs the Connect 400 rail expansion would give access to high-capacity transit. Not to mention the capture area of commuters coming down into the city in those areas.
For more example, everything that would suddenly be within a 1/4 - 1/2 mile range of high-capcity, frequent transit should the BeltLine and streetcars get built out, even if it's only the 15 miles ABI is working on now.
Or, all the areas that would receive better access to transit with the implementation of the ART routes.
Yes the core system can handle more people, but if you can't get to it in a reliable or timely way, or it doesn't take you were you need to go in a reliable and timely way, then it won't ever see an increase in use! I don't understand why that's so hard for you to grasp, considering how many times it's been explained. The entire system benefits from the network effect of capturing and providing access to so many more people and places.
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We all know that many buses cruise around with only a handful of passengers. When's the last time that anyone was excluded from a MARTA train due to overcrowding? And I'll ask folks who live near bus lines and rail stations -- how many of your neighbors take public transit?
There are plenty of times, too, when buses are stuffed. There are plenty of times, too, when trains are standing room only. When I'm in town, I see plenty of people using the system. Hell, I use the system as much as I can since I don't like driving in the city.
Besides, how many of those neighbors would take more transit if it was more reliable, more frequent, and went where they needed it to go? Just because they don't use it now doesn't mean they won't in the future.
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We all agree that Atlanta auto traffic, while heavy at rush hour, is hardly cataclysmic. Many big cities (including those with more public transit) have it much worse.
Just because they have it worse doesn't mean it isn't a problem. Especially as the metro continues to grow. These expansions are as much for the present as they are for the future. A Streetcar will carry many more people than the same length of cars. A heavy rail extension will carry the same number of people as two traffic lanes in the same direction, but without adding cars to the road.
The ENTIRE point of infrastructure building is to take care of current, and FUTURE demand. As the city densifies, and the outer counties continue to grow in population, we'll need the added capacity.
Quote:
We already have an extensive modern heavy rail system that would cost many, many billions to duplicate. No other city in this part of the world comes even close to what we have. We've supplemented that with a bus fleet of probably 800 buses. We could easily and quickly add more buses and have them rolling within months.
Yes, we do have the only heavy rail system in this part of the world, if you exclude D.C., and if you consider this tiny part of the world worth setting as your measuring stick. Again, just because others have it worse does not mean we shouldn't push to be better!
As far as adding buses, MARTA's already working on that. In addition to the overall fleet modernization taking place, MARTA was going to buy a ton of new buses as part of the overall expansion efforts. Those 11 ART routes in Fulton would have all had enough brand new articulated buses to run at 10min headways with the standard spares. That would have freed up all the buses currently used on those 11 routes to either replace older buses on other routes, or add frequency to other routes.
Quote:
Does this mean we're done with public transit? Of course not. But we are hardly in a crisis that requires instantaneous action without full evaluation of the long term considerations, including funding sources.
I beg to differ. We really do need to get started NOW. We should have started a decade ago, but we've been resting on our laurels for that whole time instead. Any delays cascade into much longer time frames. It took us 4 years to get from the 2012 TSPLOST to here. That was already after a decade of no new construction. By the time construction starts, assuming Fulton and DeKalb get on board by next legislative session, nearly another decade will have passed since the TSPLOST. That's 2 decades of growth and change without hardly anything new coming online to deal with it.
Do you know how the metro will look in 5 years? Because, the ARC as the metro passing 6,040,000 in 2020. That's a ****eton of people compared to when the last new station was opened in 2000.
Quote:
Has anyone even asked the business community to pony up some funding? Have they said no?
The smartass answer: Yes. You. Ad-nausium.
The real answer: Yes. Atlanta Streetcar, and they did. I won't be surprised at all if we continue to see that too. I know Midtown is helping improve the MARTA services within its area.
Again, you'll have plenty of time to get everything shifted over to your idealistic funding method, but we need to get started on building things today. As you've said in the past 'back in my day, we would have just gotten it done!' Well, here we are trying to get it done, and you're trying to stand in the way of that.
Quote:
Originally Posted by arjay57
Yep, there's plenty to do to improve the situation.
My point is simply that it's not necessary to hit the panic button. These are long term decisions with long term consequences and it makes a lot more sense to get things right from the beginning.
Quote:
Without further investigation and discussion, why would we categorically give the business community a complete pass on participation in funding?
Because there are so many more positives for the metro at large. You're stick in this conspiratorial mindset that big business is out to get us, yet somehow don't see that they will still pass on costs? How the hell does that work?
Besides, we've been investigating and discussing for SIXTEEN YEARS, it's time to act. It was time to act four years ago.
Quote:
Are we satisfied with unsupported generalizations like, "Oh, they probably wouldn't do it," or "Well, they'd just pass the cost on to consumers"?
They're not really unsupported. They're pretty well demonstrable. Just look at the airlines: when the gas price went up, they raised prices to accommodate that. Has there been a drop in prices now that fuel is cheaper? Not really.
Unless you take time to properly set up the charters and rules of a CID to keep that from happening, the businesses will just pass it on to those who shop, work, or live there.
Quote:
Where is the conversation about this? When did the business community refuse to participate, and why?
We're 144 pages into this thread. Write the newspapers if you want others to actually see your ideas.
But, fourthwarden, perhaps 10% of Atlanta residents use MARTA to commute. But to arjary's point, MARTA serves more than just the city. It's out in DeKalb and non-Atlanta Fulton, too. So relying on an Atlanta only statistic doesn't really give a true picture.
As many times as you've posted what you consider to be relevant information, it's been counter argued.
5% of METRO Atlanta commuters use transit. 10% of Atlanta commuters use transit. That's an important distinction and I'd like you to remember it. Now, what percentage of the population of the metro do you think is within a quarter mile of a transit stop? What percentage of jobs are within a quarter mile of a transit stop? What percentage of the metro population has both their home, and their work within a quarter mile of a transit stop? These are the questions that you should consider.
Without actual context, the 5% and 10% stats are meaningless. It's not a number that reflects actual choice on the metro's part, since, and I'll bet against this, a significant majority of the metro does not live within range of, nor work within range of a transit stop.
That's not even considering the lack of access to high-capacity transit, which is a major deciding factor in using a system. Winding bus routes stuck in traffic help, but aren't going to attract the riders that a dedicated rail line will. We'll talk about that later, though.
And MARTA is ALREADY working on TODs. I have no idea where you get this notion that an agency as large as MARTA can ONLY focus on one or two things at once. It has an entire office taking care of TODs, and is set to have 4 projects break ground within a year or two. We'll most likely see even more projects come into the planning phase as those are being built. MARTA is well aware of TODs, and how to approach them.
As MARTA's TOD work and the general densification of the city continues, we'll see that ridership increase, since, well, more people are around. That is something that's already happening, though, and the best thing MARTA can do to encourage use of their system, is to make sure it goes where people need it to!
For example, the 197,000 jobs the Clifton Corridor would give access to high-capacity transit, or the 190,000 jobs the I-20 East rail expansion would give access to high-capacity transit, or the 203,000 jobs the Connect 400 rail expansion would give access to high-capacity transit. Not to mention the capture area of commuters coming down into the city in those areas.
For more example, everything that would suddenly be within a 1/4 - 1/2 mile range of high-capcity, frequent transit should the BeltLine and streetcars get built out, even if it's only the 15 miles ABI is working on now.
Or, all the areas that would receive better access to transit with the implementation of the ART routes.
Yes the core system can handle more people, but if you can't get to it in a reliable or timely way, or it doesn't take you were you need to go in a reliable and timely way, then it won't ever see an increase in use! I don't understand why that's so hard for you to grasp, considering how many times it's been explained. The entire system benefits from the network effect of capturing and providing access to so many more people and places.
There are plenty of times, too, when buses are stuffed. There are plenty of times, too, when trains are standing room only. When I'm in town, I see plenty of people using the system. Hell, I use the system as much as I can since I don't like driving in the city.
Besides, how many of those neighbors would take more transit if it was more reliable, more frequent, and went where they needed it to go? Just because they don't use it now doesn't mean they won't in the future.
Just because they have it worse doesn't mean it isn't a problem. Especially as the metro continues to grow. These expansions are as much for the present as they are for the future. A Streetcar will carry many more people than the same length of cars. A heavy rail extension will carry the same number of people as two traffic lanes in the same direction, but without adding cars to the road.
The ENTIRE point of infrastructure building is to take care of current, and FUTURE demand. As the city densifies, and the outer counties continue to grow in population, we'll need the added capacity.
Yes, we do have the only heavy rail system in this part of the world, if you exclude D.C., and if you consider this tiny part of the world worth setting as your measuring stick. Again, just because others have it worse does not mean we shouldn't push to be better!
As far as adding buses, MARTA's already working on that. In addition to the overall fleet modernization taking place, MARTA was going to buy a ton of new buses as part of the overall expansion efforts. Those 11 ART routes in Fulton would have all had enough brand new articulated buses to run at 10min headways with the standard spares. That would have freed up all the buses currently used on those 11 routes to either replace older buses on other routes, or add frequency to other routes.
I beg to differ. We really do need to get started NOW. We should have started a decade ago, but we've been resting on our laurels for that whole time instead. Any delays cascade into much longer time frames. It took us 4 years to get from the 2012 TSPLOST to here. That was already after a decade of no new construction. By the time construction starts, assuming Fulton and DeKalb get on board by next legislative session, nearly another decade will have passed since the TSPLOST. That's 2 decades of growth and change without hardly anything new coming online to deal with it.
Do you know how the metro will look in 5 years? Because, the ARC as the metro passing 6,040,000 in 2020. That's a ****eton of people compared to when the last new station was opened in 2000.
The smartass answer: Yes. You. Ad-nausium.
The real answer: Yes. Atlanta Streetcar, and they did. I won't be surprised at all if we continue to see that too. I know Midtown is helping improve the MARTA services within its area.
Again, you'll have plenty of time to get everything shifted over to your idealistic funding method, but we need to get started on building things today. As you've said in the past 'back in my day, we would have just gotten it done!' Well, here we are trying to get it done, and you're trying to stand in the way of that.
Because there are so many more positives for the metro at large. You're stick in this conspiratorial mindset that big business is out to get us, yet somehow don't see that they will still pass on costs? How the hell does that work?
Besides, we've been investigating and discussing for SIXTEEN YEARS, it's time to act. It was time to act four years ago.
They're not really unsupported. They're pretty well demonstrable. Just look at the airlines: when the gas price went up, they raised prices to accommodate that. Has there been a drop in prices now that fuel is cheaper? Not really.
Unless you take time to properly set up the charters and rules of a CID to keep that from happening, the businesses will just pass it on to those who shop, work, or live there.
We're 144 pages into this thread. Write the newspapers if you want others to actually see your ideas.
Edgewood TOD is set to break ground in May and take 18 months to complete Phase 1. Phase 2 will not start until 2018.
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