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Old 10-14-2015, 12:01 PM
 
Location: Seattle, WA
9,830 posts, read 7,173,913 times
Reputation: 7767

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I think any HRT lines should start from the Five Points hub/framework, then spoke and branch out in different directions at different points on existing lines. So in theory, in the future they could still extend and branch the Green line to Clairmont/N Druid Hills/Northlake/Tucker along the railroad corridor, as was the old school plan. That would very nicely connect with this Clifton corridor LRT, as well as a great connection and terminus point for a potential top end perimeter LRT.

An LRT across Perimeter Center, as opposed to HRT, gives the advantage of having more stops. I don't think HRT could accomplish a direct station at the Concourse Towers, Ravinia, Perimeter East, Hammond Park, City Springs, etc. But a LRT could serve all of that perfectly, very nicely complementing the Red line.
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Old 10-14-2015, 12:47 PM
 
Location: Kirkwood
23,726 posts, read 24,704,209 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fourthwarden View Post
To go off of that:

Transit Technologies Worksheet (Reconnecting America)
HRT:
Cost: $50 - $250 Million per mile
Capacity: up to 1048 persons (262 persons/per pair * 4 pair trains)
LRT:
Cost: $20 - $60 Million per mile
Capacity: up to 495 persons (195 persons/trainset * 3 trainsets)
Looking here in the region:

Connect 400 HRT Cost: $244 Mil. Per mile

I-20 East HRT Cost: $167 Mil. Per Mile (couldn't find a purely HRT cost, so this actually includes the BRT cost without the BRT miles included)

Clifton Corridor LRT Cost: $141 mil. Per Mile

Downtown Streetcar Cost: $74 Mil. Per Mile

SO. What does all of this say? What I see is that LRT done much like the Clifton Corridor, with dedicated rights of way, aerials, and tunnels, can be compatible in cost to HRT, while still loosing maximum vehicle speed (70mph for the MARTA Breda cars vs. 35mph for the Siemens trains) and maximum capacity.

A note on capacity: MARTA trains can get up to 8 cars long (4 married pairs), which is 600 ft in length. An equivalent string of Siemens LRT trains, would be 7.5 trains. So, while 4 pairs of MARTA cars gets you 1048 passengers total, 7.5 Siemens trains get you 1462 persons (1365 for only 7 trains). I personally don't know of any agency that runs 7 train LRT strings, though, and I imagine there's an upper limit to how many can be coupled together. If anyone else does, please let me know.

Basically, with everything else, it'll depend on the route. Along the I-285 corridor, it'll cost more in the more dense sections around / between I-400 and I-85, while costing less in the less dense sections. There are 11.5 miles between the Fulton / Cobb Co. line and I-85. There are an additional 3 miles to Cumberland from the Fulton / Cobb Co. line. There would NEED to be a proper analysis of the route with LPAs to get a realistic cost estimate (I tried to find some from the revive 285 papers, but there wasn't really anything there), but my gut tells me the costs will be similar whether you do LRT or HRT.
Siemens S70 LRT vehicles, which are longer than the streetcar model, have a top speed of 105km/h or 65 mph. Trams and Light Rail - Mobility - Siemens
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Old 10-14-2015, 01:30 PM
 
2,411 posts, read 2,762,601 times
Reputation: 2027
Quote:
Originally Posted by fourthwarden View Post
To go off of that:

Transit Technologies Worksheet (Reconnecting America)
HRT:
Cost: $50 - $250 Million per mile
Capacity: up to 1048 persons (262 persons/per pair * 4 pair trains)
LRT:
Cost: $20 - $60 Million per mile
Capacity: up to 495 persons (195 persons/trainset * 3 trainsets)
Looking here in the region:

Connect 400 HRT Cost: $244 Mil. Per mile

I-20 East HRT Cost: $167 Mil. Per Mile (couldn't find a purely HRT cost, so this actually includes the BRT cost without the BRT miles included)

Clifton Corridor LRT Cost: $141 mil. Per Mile

Downtown Streetcar Cost: $74 Mil. Per Mile

SO. What does all of this say? What I see is that LRT done much like the Clifton Corridor, with dedicated rights of way, aerials, and tunnels, can be compatible in cost to HRT, while still loosing maximum vehicle speed (70mph for the MARTA Breda cars vs. 35mph for the Siemens trains) and maximum capacity.

A note on capacity: MARTA trains can get up to 8 cars long (4 married pairs), which is 600 ft in length. An equivalent string of Siemens LRT trains, would be 7.5 trains. So, while 4 pairs of MARTA cars gets you 1048 passengers total, 7.5 Siemens trains get you 1462 persons (1365 for only 7 trains). I personally don't know of any agency that runs 7 train LRT strings, though, and I imagine there's an upper limit to how many can be coupled together. If anyone else does, please let me know.

Basically, with everything else, it'll depend on the route. Along the I-285 corridor, it'll cost more in the more dense sections around / between I-400 and I-85, while costing less in the less dense sections. There are 11.5 miles between the Fulton / Cobb Co. line and I-85. There are an additional 3 miles to Cumberland from the Fulton / Cobb Co. line. There would NEED to be a proper analysis of the route with LPAs to get a realistic cost estimate (I tried to find some from the revive 285 papers, but there wasn't really anything there), but my gut tells me the costs will be similar whether you do LRT or HRT.
Wouldn't a LRT with deadicated right-of-way on Clifton only leave one lane for ambulances, fire trucks, and other traffic?
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Old 10-14-2015, 01:32 PM
 
Location: Just outside of McDonough, Georgia
1,057 posts, read 1,123,692 times
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Much like the fact that GA 400's heavy rail preference is not completely set in stone, I'm not entirely sure that the choice of LRT is completely set in stone either. Both are locally preferred alternatives, so LRT for Clifton is likely but not certain. The reason MARTA gives for LRT over HRT isn't even cost, as expected, but rather the wishes of the surrounding neighborhoods for "little noise". I'm not calling them out on that position, but I'd like to see a comparison between heavy rail noise and the noise made my freight trains (there is a freight line nearby). At least MARTA is listening to the residents, I'll give them that.

I'm for further MARTA expansion, but I'd like integration with the existing HRT system where possible. Yes, HRT lines are more expensive than LRT ones, but that greater expense would also save MARTA money from having to acquire LRT rolling stock and build a new VMF. Normally, I'd also complain about forcing unnecessary transfers to the detriment of choice ridership (that's for a different concept in a different county,) but it's highly likely that Lindbergh Center transfers would have to happen regardless of mode; I doubt an Avondale-Emory-Airport HRT line would be approved by MARTA.

Now, let's say that the LPA is not changed and LRT remains the predominant mode for the Clifton Corridor.

At that point, all I'm looking for is full grade separation. One of the legitimate criticisms of the streetcar (and one that I share) is not just that the streetcar uses on-street trackage, leaving it vulnerable to prevailing traffic conditions, but that there's an apparent lack of decent signal priority. The Clifton-North Decatur-Scott Blvd. area is horribly congested...fortunately, MARTA plans to grade separate the on-street portions of the LRT line. What worries me is how thorough the signal priority will be at street crossings. In my opinion, the LRT should get full signal priority over all non-emergency vehicles, so that the LRT will not stop for any reason except station stops and unexpected breakdowns.

Above all, I actually agree with one of the first posts from the "Design your own MARTA expansion" thread: all extensions to existing HRT lines should be HRT. In my opinion, there's no need to force unnecessary transfers just to continue down the same line. It's inefficient, inconvenient, and would just lose MARTA choice riders.

Speaking of a top-end LRT, I've seen this proposal come up everywhere from the Revive285 concept to many a fictional expansion map. Personally, I like the idea of connecting Doraville, Perimeter Center, and New Northside; I'd like a connection to Cumberland and Smyrna, but if MARTA ends up operating this hypothetical service, the usual jurisdiction problems come up. If this is ever built as LRT (and assuming Gwinnett and Cobb membership in MARTA), I'd like to see it extend up to Sugarloaf/Gwinnett Place as well. No use in creating a stub line and forcing unnecessary transfers at Doraville when you can connect Gwinnett residents to three major job centers on one swoop with one line.

Quote:
Originally Posted by fourthwarden
35mph for the Siemens trains
Gah! Even with the prevailing congestion in the Emory/Clifton/CDC/North Decatur area, 35mph seems on par with automobile traffic. In this car-heavy metro, one question that will always come up is "how fast does the train move?" Granted, it's not a 15mph streetcar, but I know there are light rail trains out there that can manage 50+ mph (cqholt pointed one out).

Oh, and just another random off-topic MARTA thing (mainly for MattCW, if he comes upon this thread); I noticed that the Red/Gold line slow zone at I-85 has been removed or at least significantly cut back. This morning I didn't notice a major slowdown at that area like usual. Improvement!

- skbl17
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Old 10-14-2015, 01:43 PM
 
Location: Orange Blossom Trail
6,420 posts, read 6,476,996 times
Reputation: 2673
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gulch View Post
So, you think a rail expansion serving a very congested area is a bad idea?



Overcharging? Virtually all of these places seem to be doing fine with 95+% occupancy.
What places??
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Old 10-14-2015, 01:46 PM
 
Location: NW Atlanta
6,495 posts, read 6,070,469 times
Reputation: 4453
Quote:
Originally Posted by 0nyxStation View Post
What places??
The metro area in general.

Quote:
Atlanta's 2014 vacancy rate of 6 percent is expected to drop to 5.1 percent by year end 2015. (The national vacancy rate was 5 percent in 2014 and is expected to drop to 4.6 percent by end of 2015).
The current demand for apartments is pushing rental rates way up, not landlords gouging renters.
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Old 10-14-2015, 01:52 PM
 
Location: Orange Blossom Trail
6,420 posts, read 6,476,996 times
Reputation: 2673
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gulch View Post
The metro area in general.



The current demand for apartments is pushing rental rates way up, not landlords gouging renters.
You work in rental properties?? Where is this dream line supposed to be going what are the start and end points of it??
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Old 10-14-2015, 03:15 PM
 
Location: Seattle, WA
9,830 posts, read 7,173,913 times
Reputation: 7767
When it comes to rail to Gwinnett, either way you design it, they are going to have to transfer somewhere- either to get to Midtown/Airport, or (if it's an extension of Gold) to ride a LRT to get over to Perimeter Center and the North Fulton jobs corridor. So yeah, you could do a really nice long LRT line that goes from Sugarloaf along the Satellite Blvd/ Brook Hollow/ 85 corridor, then goes along 285 to Dunwoody, but then there's a transfer required at Doraville (or at a new Gold line station), to continue into Atlanta.

Atlanta proper, Downtown, should be the focus point of the system, and that's what MARTA was intended for. So I think the expansion into Gwinnett should come in the form of a heavy rail extension of Gold. Then there could be a LRT line that more or less follows the top end perimeter corridor.

Especially in the future, when there's going to be a lot more office jobs in Midtown, as it continues to fill in. Gwinnett being a residential community, they should have a one-seat, no-transfer ride to Lenox/Lindbergh/Midtown/Downtown/Airport.
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Old 10-14-2015, 03:20 PM
 
Location: Seattle, WA
9,830 posts, read 7,173,913 times
Reputation: 7767
Actually, yeah you could have 2 different HRT color lines that serve Gwinnett's stations, one being the Gold which continues to downtown, and the other being a new color that side branches over to Perimeter (assuming the top end line is HRT).

The only downside would be waiting a little longer for the right train. High train frequency but less color/line frequency.
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Old 10-14-2015, 03:36 PM
 
Location: Prescott, AZ
5,559 posts, read 4,658,537 times
Reputation: 2284
Quote:
Originally Posted by cqholt View Post
Siemens S70 LRT vehicles, which are longer than the streetcar model, have a top speed of 105km/h or 65 mph. Trams and Light Rail - Mobility - Siemens
I stand corrected. Here is the data sheet for the S70 LRT Vehicles. The shown max opperating speed is 55mph, with a max allowable speed of 71mph (I saw where they said it was 65mph, but this sheet says different, not sure why.)


Quote:
Originally Posted by jeoff View Post
Wouldn't a LRT with deadicated right-of-way on Clifton only leave one lane for ambulances, fire trucks, and other traffic?
The maps from my previous post, which are from the Locally Preferred Alternative that MARTA has published on their website, show that Clifton would need to be re-aligned, which would extend the right of way into adjacent properties. There would be a median with the Light Rail tracks running through it. Kinda like this:

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