MARTA visiting Emory/CDC area to discuss expansion (Avera: employment, school)

[primaltech]

Yeah, it should definitely stop at both Avondale, and Decatur, since Decatur is the DeKalb county seat. Therefore it might as well stop at Kensington, too. Especially since Kensington is probably going to get the new "Downtown DeKalb" government offices development.

That said, for speed purposes it could definitely skip everything between Decatur and GA State.

[primaltech]

I wonder what's going to happen with Indian Creek. The direct ramps from the highway are going to become practically useless, when there's a Covington station, and stations out on I-20 east. Who would use the ramps?

[cqholt]

Originally Posted by primaltech

I wonder what's going to happen with Indian Creek. The direct ramps from the highway are going to become practically useless, when there's a Covington station, and stations out on I-20 east. Who would use the ramps?

The station is planned to be reworked so the station is in a North-South orientation. GDOT is in charge of the ramps, so they will have to decide.

[DirkMcGirt]

Oh look, the $1.2 billion boondoggle won't die. MARTA projects this thing will attract just 5,450 new riders in 20 years, yet somehow this is worthy of $1.2 billion in investment.

Oh Keith, you are so over your head. Time for MARTA to trade up and get someone with a real clue to run the system. The small changes made the first year were great, but MARTA progress has stalled and Keith is clueless.

[fourthwarden]

Originally Posted by DirkMcGirt

Oh look, the $1.2 billion boondoggle won't die. MARTA projects this thing will attract just 5,450 new riders in 20 years, yet somehow this is worthy of $1.2 billion in investment.

Oh Keith, you are so over your head. Time for MARTA to trade up and get someone with a real clue to run the system. The small changes made the first year were great, but MARTA progress has stalled and Keith is clueless.

As much as I hate dealing with the trolls, this needs to be taken care of. Using your own number for projected new ridership (From CLIFTON CORRIDOR ALTERNATIVES ANALYSIS Locally Preferred Alternative Report Table 2-1, Page 2-4):

Clifton Corridor:

(5450 new riders/day * 365 days/year) / (52 weeks/year * 8.6 route miles) = 4448 riders/week&route mile

Full HRT System:

232,100 riders/week / 47.6 route miles = 4,876 riders/week&route mile

Using MARTA's boarding numbers for the Clifton Corridor LRT 1 option (in the Screening 2 report), there will be 17500 average daily boardings. This is the second highest ridership of the alternatives investigate, behind HRT North & South combined at 18400 boardings (900 more boardings).

This is with HRT North & South having a new ridership projection of 6900 riders. SO. Basically, the Clifton corridor is comparable to the rest of the system in riders / mile, and is runner up in total daily boardings despite having a 'low' new rider number. On Table 3-11 on page 3-42 you can see why LRT was chosen over HRT.

The Clifton corridor, on new riders alone, almost matches the average rider per / week&route mile of the rest of the rail system. Using the assumption that 2 Boardings = 1 Rider, that's 8750 daily riders (this IS a flawed assumption, but I don't have a better one). Using the same calcs as above, you get:

Clifton Corridor:

(8750 riders/day * 365 days/year) / (52 weeks/year * 8.6 route miles) = 7142 riders/week&route mile

Note that that is much higher than the value for the system as a whole. This idea that there MUST be a ton of new riders for this route is a horribly flawed metric to judge the success of the route and, honestly, is nothing more than cherry-picking of numbers.

[bu2]

Originally Posted by ATLTJL

A trolley or streetcar would cost $1 billion?

Really, MARTA, you don't have to forge the tracks out of 24 karat gold....

They're doing a lot of tunneling.

[bu2]

Originally Posted by skbl17

Much like the fact that GA 400's heavy rail preference is not completely set in stone, I'm not entirely sure that the choice of LRT is completely set in stone either. Both are locally preferred alternatives, so LRT for Clifton is likely but not certain. The reason MARTA gives for LRT over HRT isn't even cost, as expected, but rather the wishes of the surrounding neighborhoods for "little noise". I'm not calling them out on that position, but I'd like to see a comparison between heavy rail noise and the noise made my freight trains (there is a freight line nearby). At least MARTA is listening to the residents, I'll give them that.

I'm for further MARTA expansion, but I'd like integration with the existing HRT system where possible. Yes, HRT lines are more expensive than LRT ones, but that greater expense would also save MARTA money from having to acquire LRT rolling stock and build a new VMF. Normally, I'd also complain about forcing unnecessary transfers to the detriment of choice ridership (that's for a different concept in a different county,) but it's highly likely that Lindbergh Center transfers would have to happen regardless of mode; I doubt an Avondale-Emory-Airport HRT line would be approved by MARTA.

Now, let's say that the LPA is not changed and LRT remains the predominant mode for the Clifton Corridor.

At that point, all I'm looking for is full grade separation. One of the legitimate criticisms of the streetcar (and one that I share) is not just that the streetcar uses on-street trackage, leaving it vulnerable to prevailing traffic conditions, but that there's an apparent lack of decent signal priority. The Clifton-North Decatur-Scott Blvd. area is horribly congested...fortunately, MARTA plans to grade separate the on-street portions of the LRT line. What worries me is how thorough the signal priority will be at street crossings. In my opinion, the LRT should get full signal priority over all non-emergency vehicles, so that the LRT will not stop for any reason except station stops and unexpected breakdowns.

Above all, I actually agree with one of the first posts from the "Design your own MARTA expansion" thread: all extensions to existing HRT lines should be HRT. In my opinion, there's no need to force unnecessary transfers just to continue down the same line. It's inefficient, inconvenient, and would just lose MARTA choice riders.

Speaking of a top-end LRT, I've seen this proposal come up everywhere from the Revive285 concept to many a fictional expansion map. Personally, I like the idea of connecting Doraville, Perimeter Center, and New Northside; I'd like a connection to Cumberland and Smyrna, but if MARTA ends up operating this hypothetical service, the usual jurisdiction problems come up. If this is ever built as LRT (and assuming Gwinnett and Cobb membership in MARTA), I'd like to see it extend up to Sugarloaf/Gwinnett Place as well. No use in creating a stub line and forcing unnecessary transfers at Doraville when you can connect Gwinnett residents to three major job centers on one swoop with one line.



Gah! Even with the prevailing congestion in the Emory/Clifton/CDC/North Decatur area, 35mph seems on par with automobile traffic. In this car-heavy metro, one question that will always come up is "how fast does the train move?" Granted, it's not a 15mph streetcar, but I know there are light rail trains out there that can manage 50+ mph (cqholt pointed one out).

Oh, and just another random off-topic MARTA thing (mainly for MattCW, if he comes upon this thread); I noticed that the Red/Gold line slow zone at I-85 has been removed or at least significantly cut back. This morning I didn't notice a major slowdown at that area like usual. Improvement!

- skbl17

This process makes me question the competence of MARTA. The reason for LRT was noise and yet they are now tunneling through LaVista Park where they were concerned about noise. They also never gave a reason why they had to go north of the RR tracks near residential instead of south near commercial. And again, tunneling changes the decision making.

Many people wouldn't need to transfer if it was an extension of the green line to Avondale and then to Lindberg and Doraville. A lot of the ridership comes from the southeast and from Gwinnet County.

And its insane to impair the already ultra-congested roads in any way. These MARTA people can't possibly ever drive in the area. Clifton has already ground to a halt with Emory Point and the 2 extra traffic lights they added. North Decatur is worse, especially at the Clairmont intersection.

[bu2]

Also, I wouldn't expect to see much difference in cost between LRT and HRT in the 285 corridor if you grade separate. Either will be expensive. And if you don't grade separate it will be a disaster for LRT and cars.

[Gulch]

Originally Posted by bu2

Also, I wouldn't expect to see much difference in cost between LRT and HRT in the 285 corridor if you grade separate. Either will be expensive. And if you don't grade separate it will be a disaster for LRT and cars.

Too many people automatically assume that LRT=cheaper just because it's LRT.

[DirkMcGirt]

Originally Posted by fourthwarden;

long post

So... your argument comes down to the idea that MARTA should spend $1.2 billion NOT to add new riders.

I disagree and think this is absurdly illogical... but I respect your willingness to take a bold stance however nonsensical it is.