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Two: the city does know, and doesn't seem to want it to happen since they are still pushing to put LRT on the BeltLine corridor. They are still leveraging the eastside trail as a success of urban development, and an attraction for development. Wnenever the Feds and State decide to make their plans public, having not kept the people in the loop, and without the city's support, there will be massive public and civil push back. That pushback will be coming from a set of neighborhoods whoes history includes killing many interstates, and who will fight for the BeltLine as envisioned.[/indent]
I remember going to a rally 6 or 7 years ago opposing commuter rail on the Beltline. Most of the folks over in Virginia Highland were strongly against such an idea.
I remember going to a rally 6 or 7 years ago opposing commuter rail on the Beltline. Most of the folks over in Virginia Highland were strongly against such an idea.
Yes. Amtrak was talking about using that route and Atlanta and the neighborhoods threw a fit. It was inappropriate and inconsistent to put passenger rail where there had been freight rail for a century.
Yes. Amtrak was talking about using that route and Atlanta and the neighborhoods threw a fit. It was inappropriate and inconsistent to put passenger rail where there had been freight rail for a century.
But that did kill the idea.
Folks over there had gotten hepped up on the idea of having these sleek streetcars running down the Beltline.
I have read that numerous times, I have not forgotten anything about it. I simply disagree with much of the details.
Quote:
Originally Posted by toll_booth
Exactly. Any freight or commuter rail down the Eastside Beltline proposal would be DOA.
GRTA already does this. The ridership is not very high.
I'd like to see Metro Atlanta model a commuter rail system after Chicago's or Philly's--both expansive and well-traveled systems.
Quote:
Originally Posted by primaltech
Hard to argue with someone who's clearly from the future. I guess I'm just not in the know of these level of details of how the 2020's will go down.
Anyway, while I'd be happy about commuter rail, and any kind of transit for Atlanta, I can't help but shake my head about how all of this could and should have been MARTA heavy rail, and could and should have been already in place over 20 years ago. One seat, one tech, connecting all of the 5 main counties to Five Points, in a nice hybrid commuter to subway system implementation. That was the vision and the plan of MARTA, that was not even barely halfway realized. Had Cobb and Gwinnett and the state government played nicely from the start, and if not for local NIMBY's preventing the Northlake/Tucker line or the northwest line, we'd probably have stations in place by now in Kennesaw and Buford and downtown Lawrenceville, and most of it would have been 50% or more paid for by the feds.
Every time I drive by the excellent Gold line stations, especially Brookhaven, I think about how that could have also been in Norcross and beyond. Smyrna park & ride station. Marietta could have had an underground station right at the square, much like Decatur.
I guess my point is that we (the metro) should pick one train technology, one system, and stick with it. Under one agency, covering the whole region. The idea that Doraville would have a commuter rail stop. Doraville IS a commuter rail stop. All we've ever had to do is just extend MARTA and build new branch lines. We've had the hub in place since before I was born, but we only have 4 or 5 spokes, and they're all too short. So to remedy that we're going to build a new hub and start from scratch with a regional system, built on top/ right next to the other one? Hardly seems efficient in any sense.
Quote:
Originally Posted by fourthwarden
Look, considering the City is pushing so hard to get LRT on the Corridor, and assuming what you insist is true, is, then I see two things happening.
One: the city is not in the loop with such disruptive plans, and has no idea they're coming. Because of this, the city is pushing ahead with both trails and LRT in the East-Side corridor, using the trail's success as a model and example to continue funding the project. Wnenever the Feds and State decide to make their plans public, having not kept either the city or the people in the loop, there will be massive public and civil push back. That pushback will be coming from a set of neighborhoods whoes history includes killing many interstates, and who will fight for the BeltLine as envisioned.
Two: the city does know, and doesn't seem to want it to happen since they are still pushing to put LRT on the BeltLine corridor. They are still leveraging the eastside trail as a success of urban development, and an attraction for development. Wnenever the Feds and State decide to make their plans public, having not kept the people in the loop, and without the city's support, there will be massive public and civil push back. That pushback will be coming from a set of neighborhoods whoes history includes killing many interstates, and who will fight for the BeltLine as envisioned.
Just remember, the city, via ABI owns these streatches of land. Without their cooperation, or a lengthy court process, nothing will be built there that they don't want.
Quote:
Originally Posted by arjay57
I remember going to a rally 6 or 7 years ago opposing commuter rail on the Beltline. Most of the folks over in Virginia Highland were strongly against such an idea.
Quote:
Originally Posted by bu2
Which is exactly why commuter rail makes no sense.
Quote:
Originally Posted by bu2
Yes. Amtrak was talking about using that route and Atlanta and the neighborhoods threw a fit. It was inappropriate and inconsistent to put passenger rail where there had been freight rail for a century.
But that did kill the idea.
Quote:
Originally Posted by arjay57
Folks over there had gotten hepped up on the idea of having these sleek streetcars running down the Beltline.
Hard to argue with someone who's clearly from the future. I guess I'm just not in the know of these level of details of how the 2020's will go down.
Anyway, while I'd be happy about commuter rail, and any kind of transit for Atlanta, I can't help but shake my head about how all of this could and should have been MARTA heavy rail, and could and should have been already in place over 20 years ago. One seat, one tech, connecting all of the 5 main counties to Five Points, in a nice hybrid commuter to subway system implementation. That was the vision and the plan of MARTA, that was not even barely halfway realized. Had Cobb and Gwinnett and the state government played nicely from the start, and if not for local NIMBY's preventing the Northlake/Tucker line or the northwest line, we'd probably have stations in place by now in Kennesaw and Buford and downtown Lawrenceville, and most of it would have been 50% or more paid for by the feds.
Every time I drive by the excellent Gold line stations, especially Brookhaven, I think about how that could have also been in Norcross and beyond. Smyrna park & ride station. Marietta could have had an underground station right at the square, much like Decatur.
I guess my point is that we (the metro) should pick one train technology, one system, and stick with it. Under one agency, covering the whole region. The idea that Doraville would have a commuter rail stop. Doraville IS a commuter rail stop. All we've ever had to do is just extend MARTA and build new branch lines. We've had the hub in place since before I was born, but we only have 4 or 5 spokes, and they're all too short. So to remedy that we're going to build a new hub and start from scratch with a regional system, built on top/ right next to the other one? Hardly seems efficient in any sense.
This is the kind of thinking that gets transit advocates laughed at. Do you really want to sit on the hard seat of a MARTA train all the way from Gainesville? Because that's exactly what you're proposing. You're also telling folks that once they get to Atlanta, they still have a 20+ minute trip into Atlanta itself. HRT is appropriate for short distances which in Atlanta's case is out to about I-285, or where new RoW would have to be built anyways (such as GA-400)
Quote:
Originally Posted by fourthwarden
Look, considering the City is pushing so hard to get LRT on the Corridor, and assuming what you insist is true, is, then I see two things happening.
One: the city is not in the loop with such disruptive plans, and has no idea they're coming. Because of this, the city is pushing ahead with both trails and LRT in the East-Side corridor, using the trail's success as a model and example to continue funding the project. Wnenever the Feds and State decide to make their plans public, having not kept either the city or the people in the loop, there will be massive public and civil push back. That pushback will be coming from a set of neighborhoods whoes history includes killing many interstates, and who will fight for the BeltLine as envisioned.
Two: the city does know, and doesn't seem to want it to happen since they are still pushing to put LRT on the BeltLine corridor. They are still leveraging the eastside trail as a success of urban development, and an attraction for development. Wnenever the Feds and State decide to make their plans public, having not kept the people in the loop, and without the city's support, there will be massive public and civil push back. That pushback will be coming from a set of neighborhoods whoes history includes killing many interstates, and who will fight for the BeltLine as envisioned.
It's option 1.
Quote:
Just remember, the city, via ABI owns these streatches of land. Without their cooperation, or a lengthy court process, nothing will be built there that they don't want.
Not necessarily too lengthy. Public property appropriation by higher public agencies is a good deal faster than say acquisition of private land.
Quote:
Originally Posted by bu2
Which is exactly why commuter rail makes no sense.
Wrong. The buses are at and above capacity which is impressive considering they are quite a bit slower than even driving, and far slower than rail service would be. So if anything, it proves that commuter rail makes LOTS of sense.
Quote:
Originally Posted by bu2
Yes. Amtrak was talking about using that route and Atlanta and the neighborhoods threw a fit. It was inappropriate and inconsistent to put passenger rail where there had been freight rail for a century.
But that did kill the idea.
What??? You do realize that passenger trains and freight trains co-mingle all the time right? That's kind of how Amtrak operates. So it's actually far more appropriate and consistent to put passenger rail on freight tracks.
Quote:
Originally Posted by aries4118
Well, this is perfect example of people just wanting to "hear" themselves speak, and/or not liking an idea because it is not their idea.
The issue that's going back and forth among y'all is commuter rail and commuter rail in the Beltline corridor.
The link above explains how we can have comprehensive commuter rail without having commuter rail lines in the Beltline corridor.
Sounds like a win-win...and a solution to all of this bickering.
I DON'T LIKE THE PLAN BECAUSE THE PLAN DOESN'T WORK! IT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH IDEA OWNERSHIP! I seriously get tired of being accused of stuff that isn't true in the slightest with no indication that it is.
The main problems with that fanciful solution are two-fold: congestion and platform length.
To the first, the whole point of using the beltline is to avoid the very busy Howell Junction with passenger trains making moves that aren't within the existing flow of traffic. I have stood next to Howell Junction and observed the freight traffic flows. In order to serve an MMPT without the beltline, the Gainesville and Athens trains would have to cross basically the ENTIRE physical plant at Howell, holding up freight traffic all the while. Trains to Villa Rica and Cobb however fit within existing traffic flows since those lines go by the two big hump yards, which is where most of the freight traffic is going. Taking the beltline for Gwinnett traffic, and the Inman Park belt down the east side of Emory for Athens traffic avoids this issue altogether, and gives those trains a straight shot in on the ex-Georgia railroad on CSX past Hulsey Yard which isn't a particularly busy mainline. It's also far faster for the commuters.
To the second issue. That link's proposed MMPT has way too short platforms. The section A platforms seem to be the longest at just over 500 feet. That's maybe a locomotive and 5 cars (maybe).
The section D platforms where he wants to stuff the Crescent, are right about 500 feet long. The Crescent is currently 903 feet long. What are you going to do? Shut down the station for the 20 minutes each time the Crescent is in the station?
So as you can see, my problems with that solution are purely factual.
This is the kind of thinking that gets transit advocates laughed at. Do you really want to sit on the hard seat of a MARTA train all the way from Gainesville? Because that's exactly what you're proposing. You're also telling folks that once they get to Atlanta, they still have a 20+ minute trip into Atlanta itself. HRT is appropriate for short distances which in Atlanta's case is out to about I-285, or where new RoW would have to be built anyways (such as GA-400)
[/indent]It's option 1.
Not necessarily too lengthy. Public property appropriation by higher public agencies is a good deal faster than say acquisition of private land.
Wrong. The buses are at and above capacity which is impressive considering they are quite a bit slower than even driving, and far slower than rail service would be. So if anything, it proves that commuter rail makes LOTS of sense.
What??? You do realize that passenger trains and freight trains co-mingle all the time right? That's kind of how Amtrak operates. So it's actually far more appropriate and consistent to put passenger rail on freight tracks.
I DON'T LIKE THE PLAN BECAUSE THE PLAN DOESN'T WORK! IT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH IDEA OWNERSHIP! I seriously get tired of being accused of stuff that isn't true in the slightest with no indication that it is.
The main problems with that fanciful solution are two-fold: congestion and platform length.
To the first, the whole point of using the beltline is to avoid the very busy Howell Junction with passenger trains making moves that aren't within the existing flow of traffic. I have stood next to Howell Junction and observed the freight traffic flows. In order to serve an MMPT without the beltline, the Gainesville and Athens trains would have to cross basically the ENTIRE physical plant at Howell, holding up freight traffic all the while. Trains to Villa Rica and Cobb however fit within existing traffic flows since those lines go by the two big hump yards, which is where most of the freight traffic is going. Taking the beltline for Gwinnett traffic, and the Inman Park belt down the east side of Emory for Athens traffic avoids this issue altogether, and gives those trains a straight shot in on the ex-Georgia railroad on CSX past Hulsey Yard which isn't a particularly busy mainline. It's also far faster for the commuters.
To the second issue. That link's proposed MMPT has way too short platforms. The section A platforms seem to be the longest at just over 500 feet. That's maybe a locomotive and 5 cars (maybe).
The section D platforms where he wants to stuff the Crescent, are right about 500 feet long. The Crescent is currently 903 feet long. What are you going to do? Shut down the station for the 20 minutes each time the Crescent is in the station?
So as you can see, my problems with that solution are purely factual.
He offers scenarios and possibilities on how to solve the Howell Junction congestion issue.
Moreover, the MMPT proposal is a first draft--and, as with all proposals, can and should be improved and tweaked to accommodate discrepancies. The overall framework is a solution and is plausible.
What the east side Beltline quadrant corridor needs is a MARTA light rail, running from an HRT infill at Armour, to an HRT infill at Krog St, with maybe 8 stops on it, spaced appropriately. Connecting key destinations, key popular neighborhoods, and Piedmont Park, all to the MARTA backbone. That's how I've envisioned it, anyway. Something like 2 streetcars hooked together, but with MARTA operation and branding.
Agreed that the existing HRT system would not be appropriate for far OTP distant suburbs, because yeah, too many stops, and the uncomfortable plastic seating. However I don't see why Gold line can't continue on its same path at least to Sugarloaf or so, maybe 5 more stations, a couple miles apart each. That would put its terminus about as far OTP as the planned Red line terminus at Windward. That would give people in Duluth and Norcross a one seat ride to a specific station, like Arts Center or North Ave.
I would like to see true commuter rail sharing the freight corridors, that runs long distances between stops, like an express. Yes that would be a good regional solution. But I think it should stop at Atlantic Station and GA Tech on the way to Five Points, and not run on the Beltline, especially if that means taking the place of streetcar/LRT along that corridor.
What the east side Beltline quadrant corridor needs is a MARTA light rail, running from an HRT infill at Armour, to an HRT infill at Krog St, with maybe 8 stops on it, spaced appropriately. Connecting key destinations, key popular neighborhoods, and Piedmont Park, all to the MARTA backbone. That's how I've envisioned it, anyway. Something like 2 streetcars hooked together, but with MARTA operation and branding.
Agreed that the existing HRT system would not be appropriate for far OTP distant suburbs, because yeah, too many stops, and the uncomfortable plastic seating. However I don't see why Gold line can't continue on its same path at least to Sugarloaf or so, maybe 5 more stations, a couple miles apart each. That would put its terminus about as far OTP as the planned Red line terminus at Windward. That would give people in Duluth and Norcross a one seat ride to a specific station, like Arts Center or North Ave.
I would like to see true commuter rail sharing the freight corridors, that runs long distances between stops, like an express. Yes that would be a good regional solution. But I think it should stop at Atlantic Station and GA Tech on the way to Five Points, and not run on the Beltline, especially if that means taking the place of streetcar/LRT along that corridor.
Agree on all.
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