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And while there's no argument that all infrastructure and modes of transport are imperfect, can experience delays and so on, some do work better than others. In most major municipal and regional public transport systems, routine train delays--if they are routine--are measured in a few minutes. Busy systems run at headways of a few minutes.
It's very easy to get stuck for 30-60 minutes in Atlanta traffic out of nowhere, even outside of rush-hour. I cannot count how many times I've found myself in parking lot traffic on, say, I-75, out of nowhere, at like 11 PM on a Tuesday or Sunday. The cause is usually a wreck; as we know, traffic is a compression wave. This sort of thing is less apt to happen on well-managed municipal transport systems (notice I said well-managed--far from all are).
By the way, interesting that you think it's easy to route around problems on roads and not so easy with rail, tram, BRT and other systems. To be sure, it's probably broadly true, but it really depends on the problem site. Street design in sprawlsuburbia is actually quite hierarchical, lacking in the virtues of a highly redundant grid that we imagine when we think of multiple ways to get to the same place. The curving, winding streets of subdivisions empty out into single collector roads which aggregate much of area traffic, and those in turn connect to large freeways. I wouldn't say collector roads exist in plurality or are extensively parallelised.
Meanwhile, most public transport systems have parallel and/or redundant tracks, lots of side rails, and other means of routing around problems. Dense metro systems generally offer routes to get somewhere, some more circuitous than others.
All in all, it seems to me that the redundancy and resilience of suburban sprawl roads from a traffic perspective is greatly exaggerated, while the redundancy and resilience of [good] public transport is greatly underappreciated.
I see you added some!
It's actually quite rare to find yourself if a delay of 30+ minutes outside of rush hour due to a wreck. It does essentially take a wreck or something blocking all lanes to cause that. Most non-rush hour delays are due to construction (almost always planned and able to plan around) or are actually only 5-10 minute delays that feel much longer.
Yes I do think it's much easier with roads unless you're out in extreme rural areas on the freeway with no exits around (nowhere in GA matches this, I'm thinking I-10 in Texas or I-80 in Wyoming, etc.). I have too much experience in avoiding wrecks and other freeway backups. There's always a different way to go. Might be significantly longer distance wise in some areas, some not so much (GA 59 for I 85 never strays more than a couple miles away from Commerce up to SC). Just think about the road network. From my driveway I'm connected to every public location from Fairbanks AK to Panama. Obviously not going to utilize all that but it does mean that just isolating the metro area I can divert in any which direction.
Yes, part of this is the difference between MARTA and other networks. In Manhattan I was able to walk 2-3 blocks and come across yet another N-S subway line. MARTA basically has one route except where the two lines split around Buckhead. Definitely not an example of a system with options but since this is an Atlanta forum, it is relevant.
Suburban sprawl here fits that description decently well, though I think you're underestimating the smaller roads (off the top of my head I can think of ways to get around say, a L-ville Suwannee rd backup). However, places like DFW and much of Houston are known for having an extensive suburban grid network for various reasons.
At any rate, delays do occur in all transportation modes, perhaps even routinely. But I would still argue that the outcomes are much worse when the distances are as vast as in metro Atlanta, where 30-50 mi is a very typical commute distance. Train delays are an occasional phenomenon in cities, and most are only a few minutes. Rush-hour gridlock is literally everyday thing in Atlanta.
And, as others have pointed out, you can't do much in gridlock apart from bang on your steering wheel in frustration. Sure, one can catch up on phone calls and listen to audio books and podcasts nowadays, and I have done all these things in the years I've spent driving around Atlanta. But these things are all rather at odds with the fundamental nature of the enterprise, and have distraction costs. The central cognitive directive is to drive the car. It's hardly surprising that "road rage" is a thing.
But again, you can plan around this easily. I left at 9 am to get to Cumberland by 10 am. I checked the traffic on google and occasionally left later if I saw things were clearing up nicely. I also checked traffic reports. Wreck on 285? I can get around that. If you know a drive at X AM or PM will take N minutes with traffic it's really not a surprise and is just something to take into account. Much like security delays at the airport. It's the unexpected delays that get you.
Yes I do think it's much easier with roads unless you're out in extreme rural areas on the freeway with no exits around (nowhere in GA matches this, I'm thinking I-10 in Texas or I-80 in Wyoming, etc.). I have too much experience in avoiding wrecks and other freeway backups.
You might be better at it than I, and certainly, smartphone apps and real-time traffic data have made the whole process a lot more manageable.
I've spent an enormous amount of time in traffic (for the relatively trivial distances involved, e.g. 1/4 mile, 1/2 mile) on more or less unavoidable collector roads like North Point Parkway, Ashford-Dunwoody Rd, Mt. Vernon Hwy., Holcomb Bridge, Cobb Pkwy, GA-20 up in Cherokee, etc.
Quote:
Originally Posted by sedimenjerry
Yes, part of this is the difference between MARTA and other networks. In Manhattan I was able to walk 2-3 blocks and come across yet another N-S subway line. MARTA basically has one route except where the two lines split around Buckhead. Definitely not an example of a system with options but since this is an Atlanta forum, it is relevant.
The more overriding problem with MARTA is that it's fairly useless because it hardly goes anywhere. Notwithstanding the northern parts of the yellow and red line, which can actually make for somewhat useful park-and-ride commutes into the city, it goes to the airport and some ITP destinations that nobody cares about except the people who happen to live near them. The distances between the stations tend to be large, ranging from one mile to several miles, and getting to or between them generally requires a car unless you live downtown.
To a limited extent, this can be fixed by simply building out MARTA more. But not even the most sensational, trillion-dollar investment in MARTA expansion can hope to cover Atlanta's mushrooming sprawl reasonably. Since nuking the city (if we want to call it that) from orbit and starting over isn't an approach endorsed by conventional city planners, the realistic thing to do is to build out MARTA as far as possible along main conduits, then give it a few decades for settlement patterns and tributaries to converge and build up around the transit arteries. It always happens, but it takes a while, and you'll be fighting NIMBYs and people who think sitting in traffic represents "freedom" and the "American Way" every step of the way.
But again, you can plan around this easily. I left at 9 am to get to Cumberland by 10 am. I checked the traffic on google and occasionally left later if I saw things were clearing up nicely. I also checked traffic reports. Wreck on 285? I can get around that. If you know a drive at X AM or PM will take N minutes with traffic it's really not a surprise and is just something to take into account. Much like security delays at the airport. It's the unexpected delays that get you.
Perhaps, but traffic has a nasty, stochastic character. When projected across large distances, it becomes increasingly unpredictable.
Ultimately, from an actuarial point of view, one can "price in" airline and train delays this way, too. A better bet is to build something more reliable with fewer delays. The only way to do this in sprawlburbia is to build more and wider roads, which has been repeatedly demonstrated by all manner of research to simply lead to more traffic and more congestion.
I don't know why but I rarely encounter traffic delays. I can walk or take transit to a lot of places and sometimes do, but driving is generally more convenient.
I can walk or take transit to a lot of places and sometimes do, but driving is generally more convenient.
Right -- in a sentence, that's basically the suburban-sprawl-city summed up. :-)
Some lie at extremes of this continuum, where a car is required to do just about anything, anywhere (Atlanta, Phoenix, Houston, Miami, Dallas-Ft. Worth, Los Angeles), while others are a somewhat more equitable blend (Seattle, Philadelphia, Washington DC), while a small minority are fundamentally livable without a car (New York City, Chicago, I'm told Portland).
Outside of these large agglomerations, the vast majority of America requires a car to get around -- period. Most Americans do not live in the above-mentioned cities.
Location: Mableton, GA USA (NW Atlanta suburb, 4 miles OTP)
11,334 posts, read 25,981,033 times
Reputation: 3990
Quote:
Originally Posted by arjay57
I'm not knocking anybody but I don't understand the aversion to driving. It's a really fantastic way to get around. Fast, luxurious, convenient, and often downright fun.
China, India, Russia, Brazil, Mexico, you name it. People all over the world flat love to drive.
The fun factor is a big thing for some of us. I drive a 5-speed for a reason. And as I don't deal with stop and go traffic much except at stop lights, I don't have to deal with traffic-induced frustration except when I go somewhere not in my normal driving pattern.
The fun factor is a big thing for some of us. I drive a 5-speed for a reason. And as I don't deal with stop and go traffic much except at stop lights, I don't have to deal with traffic-induced frustration except when I go somewhere not in my normal driving pattern.
Hey, right there with you. Every car I've owned in my life except for the beater I briefly drove when I was 18 was a manual. It's fun for the first 10 or 15 minutes, but, whether you have a fun car or not, do you really want to live your entire public life out of one?
Until we moved back to Midtown, that's what it was, even in relatively dense (as such things go) Dunwoody. Work, even if it's to the office less than a mile away? Car, because otherwise it involves a sweaty and unpleasant walk across several large roads and on a few surfaces that, while possessing sidewalks, clearly aren't actually intended for normal humans to walk on.
Play? Car. Food? Car. Out of milk? Car. Diapers? Car. Kids to the park? Car. Visit friends? Car. Coffee meeting? Car. Shopping? Car. Office supplies? Car. Go out to eat? Car. Meet with friends? Car.
Why, that's life in Midtown half the time, too. I've managed to mostly avoid that by scrupulously positioning where we live and the location of my office, at no small expense, but even so, it's not entirely easy to avoid driving without greatly circumscribing one's possibilities.
Last edited by abalashov; 06-02-2016 at 11:59 AM..
Location: Mableton, GA USA (NW Atlanta suburb, 4 miles OTP)
11,334 posts, read 25,981,033 times
Reputation: 3990
Quote:
Originally Posted by abalashov
Hey, right there with you. Every car I've owned in my life except for the beater I briefly drove when I was 18 was a manual. It's fun for the first 10 or 15 minutes, but, whether you have a fun car or not, do you really want to live your entire public life out of one?
I'm 53. I've been doing it since I was 16. It's still fun. I'm smart enough to combine trips and buy things on my regular weekly shopping runs.
Also, Amazon Prime is a game changer. I buy things like kitty litter, trash bags, and Sudafed online now. No shipping costs (to me), and lower prices. No need for me to move at all.
You might be better at it than I, and certainly, smartphone apps and real-time traffic data have made the whole process a lot more manageable.
I've spent an enormous amount of time in traffic (for the relatively trivial distances involved, e.g. 1/4 mile, 1/2 mile) on more or less unavoidable collector roads like North Point Parkway, Ashford-Dunwoody Rd, Mt. Vernon Hwy., Holcomb Bridge, Cobb Pkwy, GA-20 up in Cherokee, etc.
The more overriding problem with MARTA is that it's fairly useless because it hardly goes anywhere. Notwithstanding the northern parts of the yellow and red line, which can actually make for somewhat useful park-and-ride commutes into the city, it goes to the airport and some ITP destinations that nobody cares about except the people who happen to live near them. The distances between the stations tend to be large, ranging from one mile to several miles, and getting to or between them generally requires a car unless you live downtown.
To a limited extent, this can be fixed by simply building out MARTA more. But not even the most sensational, trillion-dollar investment in MARTA expansion can hope to cover Atlanta's mushrooming sprawl reasonably. Since nuking the city (if we want to call it that) from orbit and starting over isn't an approach endorsed by conventional city planners, the realistic thing to do is to build out MARTA as far as possible along main conduits, then give it a few decades for settlement patterns and tributaries to converge and build up around the transit arteries. It always happens, but it takes a while, and you'll be fighting NIMBYs and people who think sitting in traffic represents "freedom" and the "American Way" every step of the way.
With small distances your options do become increasingly limited. That's true anywhere. There are roads where you might not reach another intersection for a mile. You're stuck. That happens. But in my 24 years of driving and riding around in Atlanta (and other metro areas) this doesn't happen too often. Sometimes you just get unlucky.
Yes, MARTA needs help but evidently HRT is much more expensive than it used to be. I don't think it could ever be built out the way it needs to be without diverting every single dollar to it. Commuter rail could help a lot but it seems the freight RRs are tough to deal with.
Quote:
Originally Posted by abalashov
Perhaps, but traffic has a nasty, stochastic character. When projected across large distances, it becomes increasingly unpredictable.
Ultimately, from an actuarial point of view, one can "price in" airline and train delays this way, too. A better bet is to build something more reliable with fewer delays. The only way to do this in sprawlburbia is to build more and wider roads, which has been repeatedly demonstrated by all manner of research to simply lead to more traffic and more congestion.
Many of the same equations of fluid dynamics can be applied to traffic flow. Of course, these are high order non-linear partial differential equations. I'm very aware of the issues with this and the resulting errors and "chaos" that comes from attempts to integrate over large temporal and spatial bounds. Projections and models exist, but on supercomputers. For the normal driver, you just have to go off history and nowcasting. Still, you can limit your scope. I'll be driving to Texas next week. I won't care about traffic 300 miles ahead. Wrecks can appear and clear by the time I get there. I'll just be focusing on more immediate, and predictable areas. Same with commutes. I've only gotten screwed once the past few years commuting part time in Atlanta and I actually had an out (P-tree Industrial and Buford Hwy) but I stayed on 285.
Btw, I'm not anti-transit by any means. In a weird twist of fate I was an out of state visitor to Atlanta back in college. Took MARTA from the airport to downtown and thought it was very convenient. As I mentioned I've taken Amtrak up in PA to Philly and to NYC. For NYC it was about a wash between driving with tolls and parking and I was going and staying in Manhattan for the day so it made sense to take the train. Same with Philly. Quicker than driving and about the same cost. I like having that option. BUT, I still enjoy having my car.
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