MARTA unveils its dream project list for November Referendum (Dunwoody: fit in, Home Depot)

[primaltech]

Again, I just really disagree with the strategy. A so-called Beltline "light rail" line that has to operate in mixed traffic conditions on tiny little Irwin St, then turn at a 90' angle onto presumably Randolph or Jackson St, then zig zag its way down to King Memorial MARTA, then on Grant St in mixed traffic, then on Memorial Dr, possibly in its own lane, or so we hope?

I thought the beauty of transit on the Beltline was that it was supposed to run in its own dedicated right of way along the whole route. Like a true light rail line, as in cities like Charlotte.

I mean, if I want to travel thru here:
https://www.google.com/maps/@33.7486...7i13312!8i6656

My car is perfectly capable of doing that. Or a MARTA bus. So why even build all this, then?

[cqholt]

It appears majority of the proposed S-Concept would have dedicated lane.

[fourthwarden]

Originally Posted by primaltech

Again, I just really disagree with the strategy. A so-called Beltline "light rail" line that has to operate in mixed traffic conditions on tiny little Irwin St, then turn at a 90' angle onto presumably Randolph or Jackson St, then zig zag its way down to King Memorial MARTA, then on Grant St in mixed traffic, then on Memorial Dr, possibly in its own lane, or so we hope?

I thought the beauty of transit on the Beltline was that it was supposed to run in its own dedicated right of way along the whole route. Like a true light rail line, as in cities like Charlotte.

I mean, if I want to travel thru here:
https://www.google.com/maps/@33.7486...7i13312!8i6656

My car is perfectly capable of doing that. Or a MARTA bus. So why even build all this, then?

Continuity. Just because one section (really a few spread out) is mixed traffic, doesn't mean the whole loop is suddenly useless as being separated from traffic. You're throwing the baby out with the bath water, and loosing sight of the bigger picture.

The BeltLine is a 22 mile loop. We're talking 2-3 miles of that in mixed traffic, maybe, and that's simply because the BeltLine was never a perfect loop to begin with. It was as close as we were ever going to get to it, sure, but never perfect.

The reality is that Hulsey is, simply put, a wall. We have a way through that wall, but you want to punch a new hole in it anyway. An expensive hole, that would be an incredible feet of engineering for this city. It's one thing to dig a tunnel. It's a whole other thing to do so under an active rail yard.

[jsvh]

Originally Posted by primaltech

My car is perfectly capable of doing that. Or a MARTA bus. So why even build all this, then?

Because your car (or a bus) cannot carry 195 passengers or operate on the narrow dedicated RoW of the Beltline. Plus your car will take up parking space where ever you try to take it.

LRT is very versatile and high-capacity that other transportation options cannot match. Nothing else can carry so many and operate a continuous route on both narrow dedicated RoW and surface level mixed in with people / traffic.

That ability to do both is a huge asset to why this should be expanded. Dedicated RoW should be done wherever possible, but many pieces / connections will still make sense to share with other modes.

[MattCW]

When the list for HRT gets boiled down, I hope they toss the Armour, Krog St, and Murphy Crossing infills. None are truly needed, are too expensive (Krog) or just slow down the trains even more (Armour).

The 20 cars for the Green Line though is interesting, it looks like they're going to expand Bankhead to a full 8 cars, with 6 running regularly. The math works out, the Green Line needs 4 trainsets now, times 4 additional cars each is 16 cars, plus 4 spares. Or actually, four trainsets times two additional married pairs is 8 married pairs with 2 for spares for 10 married pairs needed.

I actually wouldn't mind if the Blue and Green termini were swapped with the Blue Line going to Bankhead and the Green Line going to Holmes/MLK(future). The shorter lines might have better equipment utilization (I'd have to do some serious pencil/paper calculation to determine that), and the crowding might be more evenly distributed between the two lines.

[primaltech]

Originally Posted by MattCW

When the list for HRT gets boiled down, I hope they toss the Armour, Krog St, and Murphy Crossing infills. None are truly needed, are too expensive (Krog) or just slow down the trains even more (Armour).

The 20 cars for the Green Line though is interesting, it looks like they're going to expand Bankhead to a full 8 cars, with 6 running regularly. The math works out, the Green Line needs 4 trainsets now, times 4 additional cars each is 16 cars, plus 4 spares.

I actually wouldn't mind if the Blue and Green termini were swapped with the Blue Line going to Bankhead and the Green Line going to Holmes/MLK(future). The shorter lines might have better equipment utilization (I'd have to do some serious pencil/paper calculation to determine that), and the crowding might be more evenly distributed between the two lines.

Love your idea of Blue Line going to Boone and Bankhead, and Green Line going to West Lake, Holmes, and MLK @ 285. Because then the 2 lines would both be about the same length, and both be useful on their own. (Blue would still be a little longer)

[fourthwarden]

Originally Posted by MattCW

When the list for HRT gets boiled down, I hope they toss the Armour, Krog St, and Murphy Crossing infills. None are truly needed, are too expensive (Krog) or just slow down the trains even more (Armour).

I still don't mind having Armour and Murphy Crossing remain.

Armour will provide a decent transfer between all the MARTA modes, plus possible, eventual commuter rail lines north. Lindbergh is fine for only MARTA connections, but for commuter rail to Athens and Gainsville, Armour makes sense. It's setting the way for MARTA commuter rail in Gwinnett, if not for GRTA or GDoT or Amtrak trains even further. All that said, it is a long-range kinda station, and really only good for transfers considering how much land is taken up by Peachtree Creek, both Armour Yards, and the interstates...

Murphy Crossing provides direct connection to the BeltLine, and there's a bit of land around that area that could be built up into a decent TOD, but it's not AS useful as Armour could be.

I actually wouldn't mind if the Blue and Green termini were swapped with the Blue Line going to Bankhead and the Green Line going to Holmes/MLK(future). The shorter lines might have better equipment utilization (I'd have to do some serious pencil/paper calculation to determine that), and the crowding might be more evenly distributed between the two lines.

They could run Green-Line trains to Avondale, at least, and turn them in the pocket / yard tracks. That might help ease congestion without modifying the existing system too much, and keep required transfers down. It would also set precedence for when the Clifton Corridor reaches Avondale.

[MattCW]

Originally Posted by fourthwarden

I still don't mind having Armour and Murphy Crossing remain.

Armour will provide a decent transfer between all the MARTA modes, plus possible, eventual commuter rail lines north.

Except its only use will be as a transfer station. There will be limited local traffic, but Lindbergh makes far more sense in the regard of a major node station, mostly since it already is one.

Lindbergh is fine for only MARTA connections, but for commuter rail to Athens and Gainsville, Armour makes sense.

It would only serve Gainesville trains, Athens trains would most likely take the Parkline cutoff around the east side of Emory to avoid the mess at Howell.

It's setting the way for MARTA commuter rail in Gwinnett, if not for GRTA or GDoT or Amtrak trains even further.

All of that is better handled by Doraville and the MMPT.

All that said, it is a long-range kinda station, and really only good for transfers considering how much land is taken up by Peachtree Creek, both Armour Yards, and the interstates...

Murphy Crossing provides direct connection to the BeltLine, and there's a bit of land around that area that could be built up into a decent TOD, but it's not AS useful as Armour could be.

The Beltline can be pretty easily

They could run Green-Line trains to Avondale, at least, and turn them in the pocket / yard tracks. That might help ease congestion without modifying the existing system too much, and keep required transfers down. It would also set precedence for when the Clifton Corridor reaches Avondale.

That I wouldn't mind in the slightest. The issue though is that Avondale is a meeting point for trains meaning that as one Green Line is pulling in, another is departing. This isn't the worst setup in the world, there's plenty of track to turn around on, but it's not as simple as something like Indian Creek where no matter what platform you pull in on, the train just stops, and doesn't move until its next outbound. Either schedules would have to be realigned by a minute to allow the outbound to clear the platform, and have all inbounds pull onto the inner WB track, but such tight scheduling is hardly ideal, there's no padding if something gets delayed, and the train has to stop, unload, clear the train, pull into the yard, stop, reverse, then pull onto the platform. The better option is to realign the entire Blue/Green schedule so that Avondale becomes a "mid-point" station like the Candler pocket track is now. That way an EB is almost always guaranteed a spot on the WB platform and just has to pull in and stop.

[fourthwarden]

Originally Posted by MattCW

That I wouldn't mind in the slightest. The issue though is that Avondale is a meeting point for trains meaning that as one Green Line is pulling in, another is departing. This isn't the worst setup in the world, there's plenty of track to turn around on, but it's not as simple as something like Indian Creek where no matter what platform you pull in on, the train just stops, and doesn't move until its next outbound. Either schedules would have to be realigned by a minute to allow the outbound to clear the platform, and have all inbounds pull onto the inner WB track, but such tight scheduling is hardly ideal, there's no padding if something gets delayed, and the train has to stop, unload, clear the train, pull into the yard, stop, reverse, then pull onto the platform. The better option is to realign the entire Blue/Green schedule so that Avondale becomes a "mid-point" station like the Candler pocket track is now. That way an EB is almost always guaranteed a spot on the WB platform and just has to pull in and stop.

I mean, unless I'm missing something here, you can just use the inner platform tracks to move Green-Line trains. They can pull in, unload, and, while the next Blue Line train is passing on the outter platform tracks, cross over to the other side while in the yard.

[tikigod311]

I was totally against Armour until fourthwarden brought up the point about commuter rail connectivity. This could be a valuable spot as it would make it less painful for people from the suburbs to hit buckhead and clifton. Those will be desirable destinations, we have to make transit something people will use. The additional transfer to MARTA at Doraville would turn a lot of people off to using commuter rail.