MARTA unveils its dream project list for November Referendum (Atlanta: counties, worth)

[fourthwarden]

Originally Posted by arjay57

Anything would help.

Let's say we upped the percentage spent on buses from 2% to 15%, which would come to about $1 billion.

For that $1 billion, you can buy 2,000 brand spanking new deluxe modern buses!! That would be quadrupling the current fleet of 500 that MARTA currently has.

We could have them rolling as soon as the manufacturer can get them here and as soon as we can hire people to drive them.

How many new maintenance facilities would you need? How much in maintenance would it cost per year? How much in fuel would it cost per year? How many drivers, mechanics, and support personnel would you need? How many new offices would need to be built to house them? What about pensions, healthcare, and other supporting costs?

You could afford the buses themselves, sure, but what about all the other costs? Where do they come from? The same tax? How much more does that consume? Do all those bus routes even generate close to enough riders to justify the frequency and level of service, even with future growth potential?


If it's so cheap, why not implement it slowly, as needed? THAT is the big difference here. All the light rail, all the streetcars, all the heavy rail take near a DECADE to get from funding to operation. They MUST be planned far in advance of their need, and built well before a corridor maxes out. That's why we're building streetcars and light rial NOW and in the MOST DENSE part of the metro.

Buses, on the other hand, could be implemented within a year or two, and scaled rather effectively with the immediate need.

So then I ask you, which 15% would you pull? The BeltLine Central line, roughly 19% of the total cost? The Midtown, and Crescent lines, roughly 14% together? What about all the infill stations, which are only 8% of the budget?

Honestly, I think we're FAR better off with laying the high-capacity framework NOW, long before we're already bursting at the seams, and scaling up the buses AS NEEDED with time. 15% is an unnecessary amount of money to spend on a system that can be implemented almost as soon as needed, when compared to the much longer planning efforts required to install high-capacity routes.

Can you imagine the impact on public transit this would have? You'd have buses going every which way, with short headways as well. They could easily penetrate into local neighborhoods and make it possible to walk out your door and catch a bus within a couple of blocks virtually anywhere, any time.

And all this would be done with only 15% of this proposed MARTA tax increase. There'd still be billions and billions left over for messing around with streetcars.

In the meantime, we'd get real, immediate, convenient and extremely dense public transit.

You act as if streetcars, light rail, infill stations, heavy rail expansion, and bus rapid transit isn't REAL transit. That's just an unnecessarily dismissive view on modes of transit which will lay the groundwork NOW for a future of high-density, which will actually give need to the level of service you discuss.

In the mean time, we really don't NEED 2,000 buses. We may by the time all of our other projects are finished, but we'll deal with it THEN. Otherwise, they'd just be a drain on annual operating expenses, and an unnecessary implementation at the expense of long-term projects.

[fourthwarden]

Originally Posted by MattCW

You're acting like we'd have five routes all covering the same road. If that's the result, then you're doing it wrong, very wrong, and not even MARTA could botch it that badly (probably). Any segment like that with shared routes would only exist for a transfer point, or for such a short distance that bus "bunching" wouldn't be an issue because people wouldn't necessarily be looking to travel just within that one segment. Frequent bus service doesn't have to be more frequent than 5 minutes per route, and really 10 would suffice for many routes (match the rail frequencies).

Fair enough, my mistake.

I still don't think the benefit of implementing a bus network on the scale that Arjay and Primal are talking is a good use of resources when compared to funding long-term projects. We don't need 2,000 buses in two years, but we will need the light rail and streetcars in a decade.

In the mean time, those 2,000 buses (or fewer, since even King County (Seattle) only operates some 1,800 buses total) could be phased in each year without worrying about using this expansion tax money. OR, like what is already happening, we start with the already completed bus expansion study and the go from there if that proves to not be adequate.

[arjay57]

Say we allocate a measly 8% to buses. That's 1,000 sleek, new state of the art, clean natural gas buses, that drive like a BMW. That's tripling the fleet to 1500.

What's wrong with that? Why do we have to allocate 98% of our new transit dollars for the next 40 years to rail?

Is this a sensible and balanced approach?

[MikeHonchoATL]

Originally Posted by arjay57

Say we allocate a measly 8% to buses. That's 1,000 sleek, new state of the art, clean natural gas buses, that drive like a BMW. That's tripling the fleet to 1500.

What's wrong with that? Why do we have to allocate 98% of our new transit dollars for the next 40 years to rail?

Is this a sensible and balanced approach?

You are ignoring the long term maintenance cost of maintaining these new buses. This is not a one time expense. You also have to pay the drivers and the staff dedicated to trying to eliminate the **** smell that inundates these buses nearly instantly. Does revenue increase enough to cover these expenses? Not likely. You simply add to MARTA's long term budget issues if you don't do this intelligently.

[Mossberg]

All of this talk about buses misses an underlying issue of this region in particular.

Choice riders will not ride buses due to the "bus stigma", but many will ride light rail and/or heavy rail without a second thought.

It's stupid, I know......but it is the reality.

We can buy thousands of buses and put them on one minute headways, but choice riders will still not ride buses here in Atlanta.

In other news........

The initial poll results are promising for the MARTA and TSPLOST votes in Atlanta!!! I voted yes on both!

[MattCW]

Originally Posted by Mossberg

All of this talk about buses misses an underlying issue of this region in particular.

Choice riders will not ride buses due to the "bus stigma", but many will ride light rail and/or heavy rail without a second thought.

It's stupid, I know......but it is the reality.

We can buy thousands of buses and put them on one minute headways, but choice riders will still not ride buses here in Atlanta.

In other news........

The initial poll results are promising for the MARTA and TSPLOST votes in Atlanta!!! I voted yes on both!

Wrong, completely wrong. Choice riders don't ride buses because the buses don't go where and when the choice riders need them. There are plenty of choice riders on the Xpress buses, there are plenty of choice riders on the few half-decent routes like the GA-400 routes and route 110 (which is only decent during the rush hours). But when you have a bus that runs once every 30-40 minutes, not on a reliable schedule (25 minutes headways anyone?), that's wanders into practically every driveway, why would choice riders pick that, when they have a...you know...choice!?

[primaltech]

Originally Posted by Mossberg

We can buy thousands of buses and put them on one minute headways, but choice riders will still not ride buses here in Atlanta.

Because choice riders not only have their own cars, but are intelligent human beings who will choose their best means of transportation.

It's not a stigma. People aren't against big vehicles with tires that travel on roads. They love them. They're simply not going to choose a ridiculously stupid and slow and useless transportation option. Which is exactly what everyone insists that bus transit must be. Arriving every maybe half hour, stopping 100 times every 5 seconds/5 feet, just to let 1 person on, who has to sit there and pay as they're boarding. Then the bus gets stuck in traffic. The stops are just an unlit sign in the mud. The routes look like art designs on the map.

Cars are a million times better, even in congestion. Whether owned or Uber. That's not a stigma, at all. That's a challenge that the bus at its very concept must rise to meet.

[fourthwarden]

MARTA Tax
60% reporting from CoA in Fulton: 71% Yes, 29% No.
CoA in DeKalb: 76% Yes, 24% No.

Atlanta TSPLOST
60% reporting from CoA: 68% Yes, 32% No.

Fulton TSPLOST
60% reporting from not-CoA: 53% Yes, 47% No.

[Mossberg]

When I speak of bus stigma, I'm not necessarily referring to Xpress buses from the suburbs (many of which are quite comfortable and fancy) and have mostly middle class folks going to work on them.

I'm referring to the regular MARTA buses in the city. It seems that many choice riders don't want to be on buses with poor people or people that they see as rough or "thugs" (everyone's new favorite subliminal racist term).

People have actually said as much.

I don't feel this way, but an ALARMING number of people do. There are many EXISTING useful routes with good frequency that people live and work near, but simply will not use them because of the bus stigma.

I bet if we gave a city-wide survey right now, the vast majority of people would prefer a train over a bus, even if the walk was the same, convenience was the same, and the time of arrival was the same.

That will tell you that buses indeed do have a "stigma" and a somewhat negative stereotype.

[Ant131531]

Originally Posted by fourthwarden

MARTA Tax
60% reporting from CoA in Fulton: 71% Yes, 29% No.
CoA in DeKalb: 76% Yes, 24% No.

Atlanta TSPLOST
60% reporting from CoA: 68% Yes, 32% No.

Fulton TSPLOST
60% reporting from not-CoA: 53% Yes, 47% No.

This is some good news in a terrible night. Really happy this will pass. Cannot wait to see what they do. Fulton TPLOST is close though with 60%...it could still switch.