I'm all for gentrification. (Atlanta, Washington: apartments, felony, income)

[Saintmarks]

Originally Posted by aries4118

Wealth and white privilege are not mutually exclusive.

"Both-and, not either-or"

I think, if I am understanding your point here, is that white privilege allows someone to abuse the system through their wealth and connections only if they are white. A black person with the same wealth would not get that pass.

My point is that not every white person has that kind of wealth and power connections. I don't think this is really an area where we would strive for justice, is it? That black wealth get the same unfair treatment by the system? That poor of any race still get trodden on by the same system is a worse sin in my mind.

I haven't had to go thru our court system for much.... traffic fines primarily. The one time I really came under its heavy thumb was my divorce. I represented myself. The ex's dad ponied up for a big time lawyer. Her family wealth trumped mine and I got the shaft. So while there is certainly a viewpoint to see the "system" as favorable to whites, and I don't disagree that many times it is... but wealth and political connections to the good ol' boy system is not equally proportioned, even in the white privilege realm.

[aries4118]

Originally Posted by Saintmarks

I will read it on your recommendation, trust your judgment. The Amazon blurb left a not so pleasant taste on the tongue....

☺️
And Brother Marks, I meant no ill will.


I was just taken aback a bit. Trust me, the book is right up your alley. While (and after) reading it, you're gonna want get in your car, drive straight to the ATL, and analyze!


It is so good...and with maps! So many maps! Awesome maps!

[Domitian]

just curious, but what is the opposite of gentrification?

[arjay57]

Originally Posted by Saintmarks

I will read it on your recommendation, trust your judgment. The Amazon blurb left a not so pleasant taste on the tongue....

Saintmarks, you will like the Kevin Kruse book.

However, for a fuller and more detailed treatment, check out the other four books I mentioned. And there are others as well.

[aries4118]

Originally Posted by arjay57

Saintmarks, you will like the Kevin Kruse book.

However, for a fuller and more detailed treatment, check out the other four books I mentioned. And there are others as well.

Kruse's book gives the fullest, most detailed account. And everybody who is anybody knows this.

[residinghere2007]

Originally Posted by arjay57

I hear folks criticizing gentrification in the abstract but I don't recall hearing any great hue and cry over gentrification for things like the Beltline, PCM, O4W, Candler Park, Midtown, etc. Does it come down to whose ox is being gored.

FWIW, I will state that I have known many people IRL in Atlanta who criticized the Beltline, PCM, and O4W in regards to gentrification of poor blacks out of the neighborhood. I think due to me working in housing in Atlanta, this was just a hot topic of conversation and I had to speak to many individuals and groups in Atlanta who were concerned in regards to gentrification in those areas and due to the Beltline in general. People are still concerned about gentrification as a result of the Beltline.

I also read a while ago that Candler Park actually did used to be "negro" area many years ago and that whites took it from the black people who lived there by declaring the neighborhood a "slum" and redeveloping it to a "white" neighborhood.

Originally Posted by Saintmarks

Off topic to the OP but not to your post and I think you would be a good resource on this. Is there a map or series of maps that would show the historical patterns of Atlanta's neighborhoods by race? I only know of areas that were white and because of white flight in the 60s and 70s became all black. We know the racial segregation of the south, I know exactly what street in Hogansville, GA was considered white and at what point it was considered black and it still follows pretty closely to that same pattern to this day But that is a town of 3000.

I get the feeling that in segregated days (if I may use that term... pre 60s segregation that is) that whole neighborhoods weren't considered "white" and "black" as they have been in the last 5 decades or so, but that Atlanta's neighborhoods were more like my hometown. White and black together, but a definite white part of the neighborhood and a definite demarcation for the black part of the neighborhood. I think that historically Atlanta wasn't so much a one side of town is white and another black as it sort of morphed into post white flight, but that it was actually more diversified in that strict sense of the word.

Hope I am making sense.... an example I am thinking of... West End was an original street car suburb, first settled by wealthy whites. Whites stayed in the area up until white flight. But the AUC is almost adjacent and surely an area that was primarily black for their entirety of existence.

So what neighborhoods were always white, what were diversified but still segregated within themselves and what neighborhoods were always black? Any resource on this?

On this, in addition to also recommending the poster read the works suggested, I will add that Atlanta did indeed have neighborhoods that were designated as "white" and "negro."

My neighborhood was mentioned in the list of neighborhoods where a reference was made to me (and I'll add, that I know that the neighborhood is sketchy. I still like it but it is actually slowly gentrifying around the edges). That neighborhood - English Avenue was orginally designated as a "white" neighborhood. Neighboring Vine City was a "negro" neighborhood. The schools also were legally segregated by neighborhood as white or "negro."

FWIW I am from Ohio and the city I grew up in also has white and "negro" designated neighborhoods. This is something that occurred throughout the country.

You mentioned West End and West End was a "white" neighborhood. Some of the neighborhoods around the AUC, primarily University Homes was a designated "negro" area.

The city itself was not separated in half or 3rds and one entire swatch deemed "white" or "colored/negro" but specific neighborhoods actually were.

Also, what city are you from? If it is a larger city, I'm sure they had designated racial areas of the city at one point in time in the 20th century and especially so after the creation of public housing in the 1930s. University Homes, mentioned above, was one of the first housing projects in the country. It was a "negro" project because of the lack of adequate housing for black people in Atlanta. Where I'm from in Ohio, the first public housing project was the catalyst that started neighborhoods being defined as "negro" and "white" areas. Prior to public housing, there were no legally defined racial segregation by neighborhood. There was traditional segregation but not legal.

[arjay57]

Originally Posted by aries4118

Kruse's book gives the fullest, most detailed account. And everybody who is anybody knows this.

Well, that cements my status as a nobody.

[arjay57]

Originally Posted by residinghere2007

FWIW, I will state that I have known many people IRL in Atlanta who criticized the Beltline, PCM, and O4W in regards to gentrification of poor blacks out of the neighborhood. I think due to me working in housing in Atlanta, this was just a hot topic of conversation and I had to speak to many individuals and groups in Atlanta who were concerned in regards to gentrification in those areas and due to the Beltline in general. People are still concerned about gentrification as a result of the Beltline.

You are right about that and I should have been more specific. What I meant to say is that you rarely hear complaints in the press or on boards like this about the gentrifying effect of projects like the Beltline, PCM and O4W.

There were concerns from the very beginning about how the Beltline would impact disadvantaged communities.

[Mutiny77]

Originally Posted by Saintmarks

It mentions the rise of the conservative southerner and seems to equate that political viewpoint with the rebel flag waving racist on the cover.

That's pretty accurate; remember we're talking about the 60's and the 70's. The rise of the conservative Southerner happened in the aftermath of landmark civil rights legislation in the late 60's. LBJ accurately predicted what would happen to the nation's two major political parties after such legislation passed. And of course, you can't forget Lee Atwater's quote:

[Saintmarks]

Originally Posted by residinghere2007

Also, what city are you from? If it is a larger city, I'm sure they had designated racial areas of the city at one point in time in the 20th century and especially so after the creation of public housing in the 1930s. University Homes, mentioned above, was one of the first housing projects in the country. It was a "negro" project because of the lack of adequate housing for black people in Atlanta. Where I'm from in Ohio, the first public housing project was the catalyst that started neighborhoods being defined as "negro" and "white" areas. Prior to public housing, there were no legally defined racial segregation by neighborhood. There was traditional segregation but not legal.

I mentioned my hometown of Hogansville in my post. However, we lived in SW Atlanta off Beecher Road when I was born. It was a white neighborhood then. By the time I was old enough to comprehend, the area was considered black. My dad got a position at the UGA agricultural station in Griffin when I was tiny, so we moved ahead of white flight.

So, I understand places like Griffin, LaGrange, Hogansville and other smaller cities and the clear demarcation of areas that were black or white. The rural area in Meriwether where we actually lived (Hogansville mailing address but across the county line) did not have this demarcation. Rural whites and blacks were scattered intermittently here and there, no black side of the country, lol. But the tracks in Hogansville clearly delineated the white side of town from the black side of town. And being a mill town, the mill village delineated the wealthy whites from the poorer whites. There was a delineation of wealth on the black side of town, a couple of streets that were much more upmarket than the rest of the West End (as the 'proper' term for that side of town was used.... of course in that day and age a much more derogatory term was used).

As much as I have understood the history of Atlanta, I have never known what is historically considered the black part of town as such. From what I am gathering here (and am really looking forward to ordering some of the books mentioned) it seems like Atlanta was a collection of the smaller towns I know. The monolithic idea of the southside being black and the northside being white is a construct of white flight from the 60s onward, not the true historic pattern.