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Old 07-30-2016, 05:55 PM
 
10,347 posts, read 11,357,816 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by whodean View Post
DeKalb could certainly learn a thing or two thousand from Gwinnett
DeKalb actually used to be the top suburban school district in metro Atlanta (and one of the top school districts in the nation) back in the 1970's and '80's....Back when DeKalb County only had a population of under 500,000 people that was over 70% white.

But the demographics and political climate in DeKalb changed as heavy development patterns leapfrogged out to North Fulton, Gwinnett and beyond making DeKalb a "majority-minority" county with high and rising poverty rates because of the abundance of relatively cheaper housing that is available because of heavy building farther out (North Fulton, Gwinnett, Forsyth, Hall, Jackson, Walton, Barrow, etc).

In hindsight, it appears that it is Gwinnett which might have learned a thing or two from DeKalb when that district was highly-regarded by many to be the top suburban school district in metro Atlanta (and one of the top school districts in the nation) back in the 1970's and '80's.

In the late 1990's and through the 2000's, Gwinnett basically was as a suburban county where DeKalb was in the late '60's through the '80's.

But as the demographics of Gwinnett continue to shift dramatically (not to mention as current Gwinnett County Public Schools' superintendent Alvin Wilbanks and the current GCPS school board regime (which have been in place since about 1995-96) near retirement), Gwinnett County will be at growing risk for following in the footsteps of DeKalb County, particularly if subsequent GCPS administrative regimes fail to manage the system adequately during the continuing massive demographic shifts that the county is expected to experience.

Gwinnett County certainly is not immune from the adverse effects that counties like DeKalb and Clayton have experienced after their massive demographic shifts from majority-white and affluent to majority-minority and less-affluent.

 
Old 07-30-2016, 06:53 PM
 
Location: Savannah GA
13,709 posts, read 21,811,909 times
Reputation: 10184
Quote:
Originally Posted by arjay57 View Post
What is the solution to this? To parcel out the low income kids more widely throughout the system so that they are not concentrated in particular areas?

I wonder what the tipping point is for the percentage of low income kids that can be reached before higher income families start pulling their kids out of the system?
The problem is, there is no way to define LOW INCOME STUDENTS other than free / reduced lunch participation, which is a completely flawed system wrought with all kinds of corruption and absue.

CASE IN POINT: Right now down in Fayette County, there is quite a huge debate going on over the fact that several schools in the immediate Fayetteville city cluster (Fayette County High) have seen HUGE increases in free / reduced lunch rates in the past few years -- despite the the fact that the census bureau shows VERY low levels of poverty, and the near non-existence of low-income housing that would accomadate so many low-income families. What has happened, is there's been a spike in minorities moving into the district -- black and Hispanic families primarily. But these families are not "low income" or "poor." They merely come from a cultural background where free / reduced lunch partinpation was pretty common and, I dare say, seen as a mandate. "If you apply for it, you get it," is absolutely true because no proof of income has to be provided on the application forms, and -- BY FEDERAL LAW -- the school district is only required to verify 3 percent of applications. Which means, 97 percent of everybody who asks for it gets it. According to school data, 41 percent of FCHS students qualify for free / reduced lunch -- the government's definition of poverty -- in a community where the Cenus bureau says fewer than 7 percent of the population (mostly elderly) are in fact below the poverty level.

I'm not posting this to cast criticisms on those who truly are living in poverty, nor to dismiss the excellent job that Gwinnett (and Fayette) schools do educating minority students, just to point out that when you're discussing public schools and race and "poverty" what's on paper never EVER is the real story.
 
Old 07-30-2016, 07:35 PM
 
31,995 posts, read 36,572,943 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Newsboy View Post
The problem is, there is no way to define LOW INCOME STUDENTS other than free / reduced lunch participation, which is a completely flawed system wrought with all kinds of corruption and absue.

CASE IN POINT: Right now down in Fayette County, there is quite a huge debate going on over the fact that several schools in the immediate Fayetteville city cluster (Fayette County High) have seen HUGE increases in free / reduced lunch rates in the past few years -- despite the the fact that the census bureau shows VERY low levels of poverty, and the near non-existence of low-income housing that would accomadate so many low-income families. What has happened, is there's been a spike in minorities moving into the district -- black and Hispanic families primarily. But these families are not "low income" or "poor." They merely come from a cultural background where free / reduced lunch partinpation was pretty common and, I dare say, seen as a mandate. "If you apply for it, you get it," is absolutely true because no proof of income has to be provided on the application forms, and -- BY FEDERAL LAW -- the school district is only required to verify 3 percent of applications. Which means, 97 percent of everybody who asks for it gets it. According to school data, 41 percent of FCHS students qualify for free / reduced lunch -- the government's definition of poverty -- in a community where the Cenus bureau says fewer than 7 percent of the population (mostly elderly) are in fact below the poverty level.
I have heard of that. We know some folks over in DeKalb who started their kid in school a few years ago and they were given a paper for free lunch and were told to fill it out. They are not rich but they are both professionals and have a good income so they were a bit taken aback. The school insisted they fill it out and said it is just routine.
 
Old 07-30-2016, 08:02 PM
 
Location: Savannah GA
13,709 posts, read 21,811,909 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by arjay57 View Post
I have heard of that. We know some folks over in DeKalb who started their kid in school a few years ago and they were given a paper for free lunch and were told to fill it out. They are not rich but they are both professionals and have a good income so they were a bit taken aback. The school insisted they fill it out and said it is just routine.
HERE IS THE REAL ODDITY OF THE SITUATION: Many school districts (urban ones like APS and DeKalb) encourage participation in Free / Reduced Lunch, NOT because they care that the little kiddos get fed (they know they are) but because they want the EXTRA FEDERAL DOLLARS that come with a higher poverty rate.

Wealthier systems, like Fayette, Cobb, and Forsyth, don't want the stigma that comes with having lots of Title One schools (especially when it's based on a flawed and unfounded system).
 
Old 07-30-2016, 09:07 PM
 
16,644 posts, read 29,343,547 times
Reputation: 7567
Quote:
Originally Posted by arjay57 View Post
What is the solution to this? To parcel out the low income kids more widely throughout the system so that they are not concentrated in particular areas?

...
Yes. This exactly.


Quote:
Originally Posted by arjay57 View Post
...

I wonder what the tipping point is for the percentage of low income kids that can be reached before higher income families start pulling their kids out of the system?
There is always variability, and a lot depends on the research used, the resources available, and the political/social climate and culture.

The "tipping point" (and ideal) is often said to be (or to have) no more than 40% low income in a given school; or at least 40% middle class or above in a given school.

Also, there are studies that say white people get uncomfortable when minority populations get above 20% (though in Metro Atlanta I think the minority percentage needs to be much higher before most whites are uncomfortable).

When DeKalb County was implementing M-to-M in South and Central DeKalb in the 70s and 80s, they found that the "tipping point" black percentage was roughly 30% before school-based white exodus and white flight accelerated (unfortunately, the school admins were not pragmatic enough to do something about this while it was going on...and they had the power to do so).

So depending on the context and an area's unique situation/needs, the "tipping point" is anywhere from 30-60%.



(And keep in mind, there will always be families that will "pull out" at lower percentages, or those that are more devoted and will stay at higher percentages.)
 
Old 07-30-2016, 09:11 PM
 
16,644 posts, read 29,343,547 times
Reputation: 7567
Quote:
Originally Posted by Newsboy View Post
The problem is, there is no way to define LOW INCOME STUDENTS other than free / reduced lunch participation, which is a completely flawed system wrought with all kinds of corruption and absue.

CASE IN POINT: Right now down in Fayette County, there is quite a huge debate going on over the fact that several schools in the immediate Fayetteville city cluster (Fayette County High) have seen HUGE increases in free / reduced lunch rates in the past few years -- despite the the fact that the census bureau shows VERY low levels of poverty, and the near non-existence of low-income housing that would accomadate so many low-income families. What has happened, is there's been a spike in minorities moving into the district -- black and Hispanic families primarily. But these families are not "low income" or "poor." They merely come from a cultural background where free / reduced lunch partinpation was pretty common and, I dare say, seen as a mandate. "If you apply for it, you get it," is absolutely true because no proof of income has to be provided on the application forms, and -- BY FEDERAL LAW -- the school district is only required to verify 3 percent of applications. Which means, 97 percent of everybody who asks for it gets it. According to school data, 41 percent of FCHS students qualify for free / reduced lunch -- the government's definition of poverty -- in a community where the Cenus bureau says fewer than 7 percent of the population (mostly elderly) are in fact below the poverty level.

I'm not posting this to cast criticisms on those who truly are living in poverty, nor to dismiss the excellent job that Gwinnett (and Fayette) schools do educating minority students, just to point out that when you're discussing public schools and race and "poverty" what's on paper never EVER is the real story.

Very good points.
 
Old 07-30-2016, 09:16 PM
 
16,644 posts, read 29,343,547 times
Reputation: 7567
Quote:
Originally Posted by Newsboy View Post
HERE IS THE REAL ODDITY OF THE SITUATION: Many school districts (urban ones like APS and DeKalb) encourage participation in Free / Reduced Lunch, NOT because they care that the little kiddos get fed (they know they are) but because they want the EXTRA FEDERAL DOLLARS that come with a higher poverty rate.

Wealthier systems, like Fayette, Cobb, and Forsyth, don't want the stigma that comes with having lots of Title One schools (especially when it's based on a flawed and unfounded system).

Another very good point.


This is where pragmatism is important. Are the extra federal dollars worth it if the Title I stigma could do more damage to a school or school system? Unfortunately, image and perception influences a lot...especially in this day and age.


This is only an issue if a school does have a serious need (for more resources) and it is not a Title I school due to under-reporting/participation.
 
Old 07-30-2016, 09:24 PM
 
Location: Savannah GA
13,709 posts, read 21,811,909 times
Reputation: 10184
Quote:
Originally Posted by aries4118 View Post
Another very good point.


This is where pragmatism is important. Are the extra federal dollars worth it if the Title I stigma could do more damage to a school or school system? Unfortunately, image and perception influences a lot...especially in this day and age.


This is only an issue if a school does have a serious need (for more resources) and it is not a Title I school due to under-reporting/participation.
Fayette County has a couple of schools that qualify for Title One based on Free / Reduced Lunch but they REFUSE the designation because of the stigma and the mandates that receiving federal dollars would require. Obviously, there are many other districts that would consider this idiocy and blashemy.

It really comes down to your community stakeholders -- what they desire, expect from their leadership, and they have traditionally embraced. I dare say, a lot of so-called "needy" school systems are not that needy at all -- they've just given in to the Feds.
 
Old 07-30-2016, 09:54 PM
 
10,347 posts, read 11,357,816 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BR Valentine View Post
Poverty rate
  1. Gwinnett - 13.4%
  2. Dekalb - 20.4%
  3. Atlanta - 25.2%

Low-income families repel middle-income families from schools. That's why schools are so much more segregated than residential neighborhoods are. Atlanta and to a somewhat lesser extent DeKalb have high concentrations of low-income families to the extent that it's impossible to avoid having many schools with unacceptably large numbers of low-income children for the typical middle income family. The HNW households in Atlanta and DeKalb would send their kids to private schools even if the public schools were equivalent to Forsyth's.
Quote:
Originally Posted by arjay57 View Post
What is the solution to this? To parcel out the low income kids more widely throughout the system so that they are not concentrated in particular areas?

I wonder what the tipping point is for the percentage of low income kids that can be reached before higher income families start pulling their kids out of the system?
With the city of Atlanta and parts of DeKalb County being home to many residents who can be considered "super-rich" or "super-affluent" (particularly in the areas like Buckhead and parts of North DeKalb) and with there being a relatively significant amount of private school options in Atlanta like there are in many other major cities, there is probably not much that could be done to keep large numbers of affluent residents from sending their kids to private schools outside of offering high-caliber gifted and magnet programs at public schools in affluent neighborhoods.

BR Valentine makes an excellent point that HNW (High Net Worth) households in Atlanta and DeKalb would probably still send their kids to private schools even if the quality of the public schools in those areas were equivalent to the quality of the public schools in a predominantly white and affluent area like Forsyth County.

Affluent families in large major metro regions like Atlanta send their children to private schools because they have the financial means to do so and because they expect their children to receive a private school-caliber education.
 
Old 07-30-2016, 09:57 PM
 
1,054 posts, read 916,260 times
Reputation: 686
Take s look at percentage of funds actually spent in the classroom, Dekalb performs very poorly due to rampant corruption. To excuse their woes strictly to demographic issues is Folly
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