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On the flip side, most people's workplaces don't move around like that.
Take me for example: I work for a government agency in Decatur that's been there for 30+ years and will probably be there forever. Tell me why there are people who KNOWINGLY get a job there and then decide to move to Flowery Branch, or Carrollton, or Newnan, or Ball Ground? BALL GROUND! Some of those commutes can easily be 90 minutes + and no, these people did not decide to move there so their spouses can be closer to work.
Yea sometimes people can't help their situation if the job suddenly decides to move, but we a have A LOT of people in this metro who make poor choices on where to live based on where they work.
Government is very different from the private sector. I worked for one company for 10 years and was in 4 different offices.
If I was Regional Dictator, yeah. Them highway buses would run 24/7/365, at least every 30 minutes or so. Every 5 minutes during peak weekday.
My fantasy vision of it basically looks something like this. You have this network of strictly bus-only lanes on all the regional highways, replacing the HOV lanes. (And the Downtown Connector would probably have 2 bus lanes per side.) Physically barrier separated from the other lanes (probably flex posts), and with their own exit ramp system. Then you have streams of buses running on them, express shuttle loop routes, connecting together all these different nodes across the region (such as Sugarloaf Mills park&ride, or Lindbergh MARTA, etc). Enough buses so that the lane is used very efficiently, but not enough so that there's ever congestion. Dozens of people on every bus, navigating the metro that way every day.
Once on the surface roads, you could further enhance the system by having bus only lanes, at least on the short stretches that link the highway with the nearest MARTA station, or nearest large venue or major thing, such as Mall of Georgia.
So then, you at least have a system where you can always get most everywhere without any traffic, at any time of day, you just have to ride the bus. Or, you can still drive, or Uber. But the point is that the existing lane counts would suffice.
The other thing would be to barrier separate out the truck traffic from car lanes, especially on 75/85/285/20.
There are people who carpool or who vanpool. Bus only lanes seriously degrades service for those people. Carpools and vanpools are much more flexible than the bus.
OK folks. You can build a new highway WITHOUT encouraging sprawl by making it a TRUE BYPASS. This means that there are not exits every mile or two.
Using a northern arc for example, you'd have exits/interchanges only at major thoroughfares such as SR-316, I-85/985, SR-400, and I-75/575. You'd have turnpike-style travel plazas for fuel and food without having to exit the highway boundaries and spilling traffic into the local neighborhoods. Containing the highway from the neighborhoods and having limited access points is how you prevent most of the sprawl.
This arc would mostly be used to keep trucks and thru travelers off of I-85, I-75, and I-285. If you look at how many trucks are on these highways OTP during rush hour, you'd make a HUGE positive impact on traffic by simply putting them on another route. Those trucks take up about 3-4 cars worth of highway real estate for each one.
After the arc is completed, implement an ITA (Inside the Arc) ban for trucks similar to the current ITP truck ban. If not a total ban, at least during the rush hours. Edit: I realize this would be almost impossible to do until a complete outer perimeter is completed.
Imagine what removing THIS cluster of trucks would do to capacity......
Interesting. Seems like a major truck manufacturer has been granted a license to do so A YEAR AGO. Money makes things happen, and there's a metric poop ton of money that will be made off of and because of this technology. I'm not claiming that this is happening right around the corner. But it'll be here before a northern arc could ever be built...
Yea? So? I know these things are on the roads and they want more of them. It STILL doesn't make it a good idea. At minimum there should be a mandated air gap between ALL wireless communication devices (WiFi, cellular, bluetooth, even audio devices now) and any safety-critical systems (brakes, steering, engine, etc.). https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_gap_(networking)
Frankly I'm not even sure sharing a computer-regulated power supply is safe depending on how the power is handled in the receiving device.
All this just defends from external attacks. There's still the issue that many of the chips will be made overseas and some kind of backdoor could be baked into the components with no one knowing till the worst case scenario happens. Even then, figuring it out would require a component-level analysis (current state of the art semi-conductor technology is 22 nanometers) and reconstruction in simulation. Software is just hardware that can change. Any software can be implemented as hardware, and any hardware can be emulated in software [provided there is some minimum level of hardware to run the software on]. This kind of attack is not far-fetched in the least. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clipper_chip
It would have been nice to see built, but at this point agree with cqholt that no new interstate will ever be built in metro Atlanta, with the possible exception of upgrading 316 all the way to Athens.
Then again, I don't think the new interstates would do all that much for alleviating traffic. Some cities have built lots of new interstates (Houston, Dallas) and are looking at traffic every bit as bad as ATL. Pretty much none of the big job-growing metros across the US (LA, SF, Seattle, Texas cities, DC, NYC, Boston, Miami) has a head and shoulders better traffic situation than Atlanta. We're basically all in the same boat.
testa,
Would you include Atlanta in this list of big job-growing metros?
I guess I should have expected this thread to go south...
Let me reiterate ... Those who are stating, take the bus, move closer to work - ect ect.. that has nothing to do with anything and will not resolve the main cause. My main reasoning for the Northern Arc isn't for commuters, nor for any Atlanta metro traffic. My reasoning for the Northern Arc / Outer loop is for a TRUE by-pass of the metro area to be installed so out of state / non local traffic can get around our city without interfering with local traffic. This is something no amount of mass transit can accomplish. The fact that many European (very anti-freeway) cities also follow a similar setup speaks volumes, because it is actually a NECESSARY piece of infrastructure, not a choice of which you can bypass. Thats why I see this as necessary not just for Atlanta but also for a National level. Yes, I would agree that the Northern Arc NEEDS to be a Toll Road for multiple reasons... Typical toll roads are designed for the specific cause to avoid congested areas and tend to avoid localized interchanges, PA Turnpike / FL Turnpike for example. ALSO if you check Orlando FL, most of the toll roads that bypass the city are VERY free flowing and have existed for a substantial amount of time and suburban sprawl around those areas is minimal to non-existent. Same goes for Houston's outer metro areas. DFW I can't say the same, HOWEVER; the toll roads still remain uncongested and still provide a feasible alternative for a fee.
Quote:
Originally Posted by alco89
On the flip side, most people's workplaces don't move around like that.
Take me for example: I work for a government agency in....
I stopped reading this after that comment and shook my head... you have to be absolutely kidding me to believe that you think that everyone in Atlanta is just so giddy about jumping in their cars and waiting 2 hours in traffic to get to work if they really had a chance to FEASIBLY move closer to their job...Which may not hold up if their job relocates, which DOES happen to many companies in the metro area. I was commuting from Lawrenceville to Kennessaw 5 days a week, it wasn't fun to say the least. Guess what, the company got bought out. I got a new job in Alpharetta, want to know a surprise? My commute got WORSE instead of better even though the distance was cut in half!!! Know why? No direct expressway from Lawrenceville to Alpharetta, all at-grade congested roads. It took me an hour and fifteen minutes to get from Lawrenceville to Kennesaw. My commute to Alpharetta can take up to two hours on a bad day.
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Originally Posted by primaltech
We don't need to spend billions on building new highways. We need to use our existing highways more effectively and efficiently as mass people movers.
Imagine if this was, 2 shipping trucks-only lanes on the right, 3 cars-only general purpose lanes in the middle, and 1 commuter bus-only lane on the left, with its own exits. Barriers separating those 3 sections.
Then you wouldn't have to deal with all the trucks clogging up your lanes, and they wouldn't have to deal with cars. Also, you'd have a guaranteed traffic congestion-free way to get to your job/baseball game/airport/whatever. Take the damn bus.
Everybody should be able to drive to a local park&ride, get on buses, and utilize the highways that way. Much, much more efficient utilization of limited highway lane space, than everyone in individual cars.
Also, we wouldn't have to raise taxes for even more billions of dollars for even more asphalt, that's just going to get congested anyway.
I do agree with the idea of optimizing our current existing highways, however; that alone won't be enough. Atlanta has FAR exceeded the efficiency I-285 could ever deliver even on a local level. We're talking about a highway that was originally designed to service an area expected to grow no larger than Charlotte NC during its conception.
While the idea is great, I do agree it needs to be implemented, here's what will happen...
The three to four commuter lanes will be SLAMMED during rush hours thus completely making the project almost worthless. Even during non peak hours they will experience more congestion than before, it's not enough capacity for a city this size.
People will be ticked at GA-DOT for allowing a mostly un-used bus lane to exist while they're simmering in traffic.
Tractor Trailors will kite on by... until they approach the other side of reality - I-75, I-85, or I-20 where they too will have to do their time in the daily grind.
The idea will only (partially at best) help I-285. It won't do anything for the rest of the city. Traffic approaching I-285 will still crawl along I-75, I-85, and I-20 which typically takes between 45 minutes to an hour from the outer suburbs on any of these routes.
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Originally Posted by tikigod311
Guess you shouldn't have to rely on the interstate for your commute then... I don't care who or what is using it, another interstate highway in the metro sucks. If you don't want to deal with traffic, don't live in Buford and work in Kennesaw
Please give us other options then. I have checked and checked again. There's only one feasible way to get from Buford to Kennesaw. Thats I-85 to I-285 to I-75. Lawrenceville or Buford to Downtown, you can try it on U.S 29, but you'll be joining U.S.78 inside the perimeter and good luck with getting anywhere with that. GA-20 from I-75 to I-85 will take aproximately 2.5 hours during peak hours, I'm not exaggerating this. Okay, even surface roads asside. Atlanta DOES have busses but they are extremely inefficiently configured. I commuted from Lavista Rd to Haynes Bridge Rd via Marta (and I might add that North fulton is the only place you even see MARTA outside of I-285 in Atlanta.) That commute took THREE HOURS. I am not exaggerating. In car the commute took barely 30 minutes during non peak hours. The reason? It took four transfers to complete my commute. With that, that also meant awaiting 4 different bus / train schedules each with the possibility of failure and delay. The reason noone uses the busses here is because its infeasible unless you live and work within I-285. Dont get me started with Gwinnett's and Cobb's bus systems. Cobb county busses dont even run before 8am...wonder why everyone is on the Interstate...
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Originally Posted by tikigod311
Many will disagree, but there is a solution already coming down the pike. Autonomous vehicles will have a significant impact on commuter and especially truck traffic. Thru traffic can be be programmed, even scheduled, to use the metro interstates in a more efficient fashion. There could be queues outside the metro for trucks to avoid riding through the metro during rush hours, exclusive lanes that move cargo very efficiently at high rates of speed, etc.
In theory and book, yes this would help alittle bit, problem is..we're assuming that its the vehicle that chooses the schedule. It isnt. Its the companies hauling the freight and the customer purchasing the product. Truck drivers don't want to deal with Atlanta congestion any more than we want a tractor trailer infront of us. Trust me, they're more than aware how bad traffic is here and do their BEST to avoid this city. I know some who even take U.S. 129/U.S. 441 or U.S. 27 to go to Florida JUST to avoid Atlanta. They're here because its the only window of opportunity feasibly possible to reach their destination within the alotted gateway of time that they have. Programming a vehicle to "avoid" peak hours would essentially delay the product from arriving at its destination while the vhicle waits for a relatively narrow window of time to pass through Atlanta.
Last edited by Need4Camaro; 08-06-2016 at 05:16 AM..
OK folks. You can build a new highway WITHOUT encouraging sprawl by making it a TRUE BYPASS. This means that there are not exits every mile or two.
Using a northern arc for example, you'd have exits/interchanges only at major thoroughfares such as SR-316, I-85/985, SR-400, and I-75/575. You'd have turnpike-style travel plazas for fuel and food without having to exit the highway boundaries and spilling traffic into the local neighborhoods. Containing the highway from the neighborhoods and having limited access points is how you prevent most of the sprawl.
This arc would mostly be used to keep trucks and thru travelers off of I-85, I-75, and I-285. If you look at how many trucks are on these highways OTP during rush hour, you'd make a HUGE positive impact on traffic by simply putting them on another route. Those trucks take up about 3-4 cars worth of highway real estate for each one.
After the arc is completed, implement an ITA (Inside the Arc) ban for trucks similar to the current ITP truck ban. If not a total ban, at least during the rush hours. Edit: I realize this would be almost impossible to do until a complete outer perimeter is completed.
Imagine what removing THIS cluster of trucks would do to capacity......
Wow! Look at that mass of trucks!
Your photo spoke volumes & reinforced the validity of the concept of getting truck traffic routed away from I-285, etc. & onto a bypass.
I do agree with the idea of optimizing our current existing highways, however; that alone won't be enough. Atlanta has FAR exceeded the efficiency I-285 could ever deliver even on a local level.
That's only true if we continue to irrationally refuse to share vehicles with other human beings.
By putting 50% of the daily commuters in buses instead of cars, in terms of added capacity that's like building 5 new highways. For far less cost, and without the construction time or environmental impact.
Quote:
[*]The three to four commuter lanes will be SLAMMED during rush hours thus completely making the project almost worthless.
Worthless? You'd be able to get there so much faster than you could now. 5:30 rush hour on the Top End, and you're cruising by at 65 MPH, no congestion at all, every day. You don't want that?
If people refuse to take advantage of the bus-only lane system, then that's a personal choice. But I would at least make it so that everyone easily could. Tons of park&ride bus transit centers everywhere throughout the region, with lots of different bus options taking you to lots of different destinations, including half those destinations being MARTA stations, so you could navigate elsewhere from there.
There would obviously be a few job areas not conveniently served by transit, so you'd still need the 3 lanes for private cars and Uber (which would have much better capacity with no shipping trucks clogging them), but the idea would be for the region to focus on moving people efficiently from all the suburbs, to the main Atlanta job centers, and back. Which is surely where most of that daily car congestion is going.
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People will be ticked at GA-DOT for allowing a mostly un-used bus lane to exist while they're simmering in traffic.
That's why the bus lane should be used, and used efficiently. A constant stream of buses during peak, most of them at least half full capacity or better. Coming from different commuter transit centers, heading to different destinations.
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Tractor Trailors will kite on by... until they approach the other side of reality - I-75, I-85, or I-20 where they too will have to do their time in the daily grind.
Like I said, I'd like to see 3 barrier-separated independent travel systems (transit, cars, trucks) for the entire regional surface highway network, or even do that for the entire state. Trucks would always have 1-2 dedicated travel lanes.
The point is, we have so much road space capacity. We use it grossly inefficiently, with the majority of people commuting in a vehicle with 1 person in it. So don't tell me that we don't have capacity.
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I wish..
