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Just as with Gwinnett, I think there's a healthy amount of scientific polling to be done before I'm willing to simply accept that. Personally, I think there'd be a larger acceptance than you would expect, even amungst the likely voters.
I also don't believe this. Two of the 4 commissioners are alright with the notion of MARTA, and I have it on good word that Mike Boyce is willing to give the idea serious consideration. Especially if he can be shown that it's a good investment.
There are city leaders who are behind it, the CID leaders are behind it, and there was at least one running state politician who was behind it.
I think the politicians who are for it tend to keep it relatively to themselves, because they don't feel like they could have enough voice to make it worth the political effort. Just as with the people, I think there's a real opportunity to get them together and show off just how much support there really is.
Again, I would like to see some hard numbers on this. You don't need to be of any specific political disposition to despise how Tim Lee handled the Braves. There was PLENTY of outrage over the whole spectrum of political ideologies. Lee lost so hard, in fact, that I'd actually be far more surprised if there wasn't a large number of progressive and liberal voters who showed up just to boot him out of office.
Which is why it must, and really should always be, a bipartisan push. Get the progressives in for the car-free angle. Get the liberals in for the social mobility argument. Get the pro-business conservatives in for the increased development(s). Get the town leadership in for the increased tax base and revitalized downtowns.
On and on and on, arguments could be made and tailored for nearly every political ideology to SUPPORT the expansion.
This shouldn't be a push from the democrats. It should be a push from Cobb citizens, political leaders, and business interests of all flavors.
I agree that the push for high-capacity transit service in Cobb County should be a bi-partisan effort that targets voters across the political spectrum.
The major problem is that there is not currently enough Democratic Party and/or progressive political organization infrastructure in Cobb County to convert that demographic advantage into real actual votes that can effect the outcome of a countywide election and/or referendum on an issue that is as controversial as bringing MARTA into Cobb County from a neighboring Fulton County (particularly the City of Atlanta) that remains highly disliked in many of the most important electoral quarters in the county.
It will take a Herculean effort and then some to register and energize enough moderate and progressive voters to overcome the massive advantage that conservative and anti-transit voters continue to hold within a Cobb County that has historically been known to be one of the most ultraconservative suburban communities in America.
Despite the rapidly changing demographics, that virulent strain of ultraconservatism continues to dominate Cobb County's political environment because those many moderate and progressive new residents have not yet joined the Cobb County electorate at numbers large enough to tilt the county's political scene definitely away from the hard-right, anti-tax, anti-transit social and cultural forces that continue to guide the county's political scene in most instances.
Within about 10-15 years, those moderate, progressive and minority voters will likely start showing up in Cobb County elections on enough of a more consistent basis to steer the county's political scene in a more center-left direction. But for the time being, Cobb County continues to be the heart and soul of the Southeastern conservative Republican movement, "The Center of the Republican Universe" if you will, that generates more votes for Republicans than any other county in the currently deep-red state of Georgia.
Quote:
Originally Posted by fourthwarden
So let them. It's their right to. That said, a bipartisan, business-backed push would likely take much of the wind out of a Tea-Party counter play for any but the hardest against, who wouldn't be persuadable anyway. 4 years is a long time to educate, negotiate, address issues, answer worries, establish mitigation plans, etc.
Don't be so sure about that. The business community thought that they were making a big play for T-SPLOST in 2012 and ended up getting their a--es handed to them on a silver platter.
The massive landslide defeat of Cobb Commission Chairman Tim Lee also appears to have been a stunning rebuke of a Cobb County business community whose large-scale cosmopolitan regional ambitions and desires do not always jibe with the fiscal and social wants of a Cobb County electorate that continues to lean decidedly towards the conservative side.
It is a big mistake to underestimate the organizational and persuasive powers of a TEA Party-led political movement on a very receptive conservative electorate...as was the case during the 2012 T-SPLOST debacle, the 2014 mid-term elections and (most recently) in the massive landslide defeat of Cobb Commission Chairman Tim Lee.
That conservative political movement is much more infinitely powerful than it may seem at first glance.
Quote:
Originally Posted by fourthwarden
Again, I want to see hard numbers on this. A few power-hungry politicians might be loud and up front about this, but, just like Gwinnett, that doesn't necessarily mimic the want of the actual electorate. The reason North Fulton politicians (and others) blocked the vote for MARTA expansion in the county was not just because they wanted something more 'regional' (controlled by the northern suburbs), but because they knew it would pass otherwise.
The will of the electorate does not always align with their representatives, and until I see actual, scientific studies showing that the average voters support what you claim, I don't buy it.
Your average voter might just be okay with MARTA, and even the tax. We'll never know unless we try.
While your average resident in Cobb County may be a moderate voter who values fiscal conservatism, your average voter in Cobb County continues to be a fiscal and social conservative who thinks that transit is a waste of money and who likely abhors the idea of giving money to a MARTA agency dominated by Fulton, DeKalb and Clayton urbanites to bring in a mode of transportation in trains that they are convinced will bring in crime and undesirables from the City of Atlanta, Fulton and DeKalb counties.
The Cobb electorate just simply has not yet expanded enough to make the possible expansion of MARTA into the county a non-controversial and even favored proposition.
The deeply conservative tax and transit-averse residents in the eastern and western parts of the county may not necessarily completely dominate the county's population like they did in the not-too-distant past, but they continue to dominate Cobb County's electorate for the time being....And those deeply conservative tax and transit-averse will likely continue to dominate Cobb County's electorate for the better part of the next decade or so.
Quote:
Originally Posted by fourthwarden
A decade is TOO LONG to wait. I am already calling for 4 years worth of build up, and even that is too long given the general mobility needs of the metro. Again, it doesn't need to be only progressives. We could build a truly bipartisan push for this, but it needs to happen sooner rather than later.
Every year we wait, is another year that construction costs go up, that national matching could be cut, that interest rates could go up, that property prices go up, that inflation potentially drops the value of collected funding, that it takes to get engineering started, that construction is postponed, and on and on and on.
If we wait the full 10 - 15 years, then you're talking not seeing a train roll in Cobb until 30-40 years from now. That's nearly the same amount of time that Cobb's not had a chance to revote, and look at how bad traffic already is. What will we be like in another 40 years?
No. Now is the time to push. 4 years from now is the target to vote. That's enough time to build the coalition, to get early studies funded and done, to negotiate, educate, and disseminate. It's enough time to get MARTA into Cobb.
I completely understand your utter frustration as an increasingly heavily populated urban county with limited road infrastructure like Cobb was in need of high-quality high-capacity like 15 years ago and NOT 15 years from now.
But the notably conservative politics of a famously (and/or infamously) conservative suburban county like Cobb just are not yet to the point where the idea of expanding MARTA heavy rail in from Democratically-dominated urban counties like Fulton, DeKalb and Clayton would be widely accepted by the county's notably conservative electorate.
Cobb seems to be moving in the direction of eventually accepting high-capacity transit into the county (MARTA or otherwise) as the county's rapidly changing demographics indicate that the such a proposition may not be so controversial in the not-too-terribly distant future (within about 10-15 years or so).
But the county just is not quite yet to the point where a proposal to expand MARTA into the county would be accepted with open arms by an existing Cobb County electorate that tends at times to continue to lean heavily toward the tax and transit-averse side.
A new Braves' stadium development-generated traffic disaster would likely move up the timetable that the concept of high-capacity would be more accepted in the county out of necessity....But the type of high-capacity transit that would likely be more accepted in the county would likely be a state-run GRTA and NOT a Fulton/DeKalb/Clayton-dominated MARTA.
The county is changing rapidly as evidenced by the continuing explosive population growth that has pushed Cobb's population higher than that of many major American central cities. But it will take awhile for the electorate to reflect the changes of the population in a county with little progressive/moderate political infrastructure and a massive amount of conservative (and anti-tax and anti-transit) political infrastructure.
I also think that even though it might take at least the better part of the decade for a conservative Cobb County electorate to come to grips with the concept of high-capacity transit being extended into the county from Atlanta and Fulton County, once the electorate accepts high-capacity transit expansion into the county that it likely will not take too terribly long for high-capacity transit lines to be built-out and implemented through Cobb County.
I don't think that it will necessarily take 30-plus years for high-capacity transit to become operational in Cobb County.
I think high-capacity transit service can and will likely become operational in Cobb County within about 10-20 years or so and I think that it likely be largely funded with money from large-scale P3's (Public-Private Partnerships) fueled by TOD (Transit-Oriented Development) along transit lines.
Funding transit with large-scale P3's and TOD will help enable the system to be built-out much faster (as needed) than if the system were to be funded in the way that MARTA is funded now with largely just sales tax revenues and some federal aid.
I think the 10-15 years is more about when the "old guard" dies out and / or no longer wields much/any decision-making authority. Younger people (mid-40s and younger) in Cobb are more pro-alternative than not. They are interested in options and solutions that will lighten their commutes and make it easier to navigate around the metro, whether it's getting to work or going to a ball game, art opening or new eatery. The options we talk about are an outer perimeter/outer loop and a train or other rail system. I don't hear the acrimony or anti-attitude so frequently opined on here - and even then it's often talking about decisions made four decades ago (I wasn't even born then).
It is interesting that you mention the Outer Perimeter.
That's because at the time of the Outer Perimeter/Northern Arc controversy of the late 90's-early 2000's, many of those opposed the Outer Perimeter/Northern Arc concept asked why then-Georgia Governor Roy Barnes (who went on to be defeated by Republican Sonny Perdue in 2002 partly because of the widespread unpopularity of the Outer Perimeter/Northern Arc) spent all that precious political capital on the increasingly unpopular ill-fated Northern Arc instead of spending it on implementing commuter rail between Central Atlanta and the Atlanta suburbs and exurbs.
Because of the widespread unpopularity of the Outer Perimeter/Northern Arc concept (widespread growing public paranoia over the Outer Perimeter/Northern Arc at the behest of the Sierra Club of Georgia also played a starring role in the massive defeat of the T-SPLOST referendum in 2012), it is probably likely that we will see rail transit in Cobb County before we see the construction of an Outer Perimeter/Northern Arc.
(...Which the Outer Perimeter/Northern Arc is a whole other issue because of the opposition of pro-transit groups, ITPers and national environmentalists in addition to OTP area residents and TEA Partiers....All these groups come together to form a massively powerful and extremely effective coalition against the Outer Perimeter/Northern Arc concept.)
Quote:
Originally Posted by hautemomma
If it does take 10-15 years to get any movement on this issue, to the point where we are not talking about research or studies, but actually seeing true transformation before our eyes, just as Metro Atlanta keeps gaining people, it will begin losing people, too - those who just cannot take the congestion and traffic anymore. It does happen. I met a few in my hometown before moving here myself.
I think that we potentially may see meaningful movement on this issue within the next 10-15 years, particularly if the Atlanta Braves' new baseball stadium (SunTrust Park) and adjoining development generates as much heavy traffic as people understandably seem to think it will generate.
Though that any meaningful movement will probably have to be coordinated at the state level.
Because of their past history and the continuing adversarial relationship between the two neighboring counties, I don't necessarily see much voluntary cooperation between Fulton and Cobb counties towards getting a high-capacity transit line established between them along the I-75 Northwest corridor.
Conservative anti-Fulton/anti-Atlanta Cobb voters do not want to send money to extend high-capacity transit in from a county that they generally cannot stand or stomach in Fulton....While Fulton County (in addition to still being very unhappy over Cobb County's recent acquisition of the Braves from Fulton County) is in no hurry to help Cobb County solve a worsening traffic congestion problem that Fulton considers to be of Cobb's own making with Cobb's traditionally isolationist and hostile attitude toward Fulton County and the City of Atlanta.
As far as those conservative anti-Fulton/anti-Atlanta Cobb voters are concerned, they'd likely rather sit and stew in gridlocked traffic until hell freezes over before giving money to a Fulton (and DeKalb and Clayton) dominated MARTA to extend MARTA trains into Cobb County from Fulton County.
While as far as Fulton County and the City of Atlanta are concerned, Cobb County residents can continue to enjoy their time sitting in a severely transit-deficient gridlocked traffic hell of their own making.
...Which is why state intervention will probably be needed to establish high-capacity transit links between Cobb and Fulton counties.
How much meaningful movement we see on the issue at the state level will also probably depend on who is elected governor of Georgia in 2018.
Current Lt. Governor Casey Cagle seems to be the point man on expanding high-capacity rail transit throughout the Atlanta metro region and North Georgia because of his close relationship with the Metro Atlanta/North Georgia business community and because any major rail transit expansion would likely directly benefit his home county of Hall (Gainesville) which is one of the most politically powerful counties in the state of Georgia right now.
Other leading 2018 gubernatorial contenders (Congressman Lynn Westmoreland of West Georgia, former Congressman Jack Kingston of Southeast Georgia, Georgia Secretary of State Brian Kemp from Athens) may or may not be all that receptive to expanding transit in metro Atlanta depending on their relationship with the business community and the concerns and makeup of the electorate in mid-term year like 2018 when electorates tend to lean much more conservative than in presidential election years.
It is interesting that you mention the Outer Perimeter.
That's because at the time of the Outer Perimeter/Northern Arc controversy of the late 90's-early 2000's, many of those opposed the Outer Perimeter/Northern Arc concept asked why then-Georgia Governor Roy Barnes (who went on to be defeated by Republican Sonny Perdue in 2002 partly because of the widespread unpopularity of the Outer Perimeter/Northern Arc) spent all that precious political capital on the increasingly unpopular ill-fated Northern Arc instead of spending it on implementing commuter rail between Central Atlanta and the Atlanta suburbs and exurbs.
Because of the widespread unpopularity of the Outer Perimeter/Northern Arc concept (widespread growing public paranoia over the Outer Perimeter/Northern Arc at the behest of the Sierra Club of Georgia also played a starring role in the massive defeat of the T-SPLOST referendum in 2012), it is probably likely that we will see rail transit in Cobb County before we see the construction of an Outer Perimeter/Northern Arc.
(...Which the Outer Perimeter/Northern Arc is a whole other issue because of the opposition of pro-transit groups, ITPers and national environmentalists in addition to OTP area residents and TEA Partiers....All these groups come together to form a massively powerful and extremely effective coalition against the Outer Perimeter/Northern Arc concept.)
I think that we potentially may see meaningful movement on this issue within the next 10-15 years, particularly if the Atlanta Braves' new baseball stadium (SunTrust Park) and adjoining development generates as much heavy traffic as people understandably seem to think it will generate.
Though that any meaningful movement will probably have to be coordinated at the state level.
Because of their past history and the continuing adversarial relationship between the two neighboring counties, I don't necessarily see much voluntary cooperation between Fulton and Cobb counties towards getting a high-capacity transit line established between them along the I-75 Northwest corridor.
Conservative anti-Fulton/anti-Atlanta Cobb voters do not want to send money to extend high-capacity transit in from a county that they generally cannot stand or stomach in Fulton....While Fulton County (in addition to still being very unhappy over Cobb County's recent acquisition of the Braves from Fulton County) is in no hurry to help Cobb County solve a worsening traffic congestion problem that Fulton considers to be of Cobb's own making with Cobb's traditionally isolationist and hostile attitude toward Fulton County and the City of Atlanta.
As far as those conservative anti-Fulton/anti-Atlanta Cobb voters are concerned, they'd likely rather sit and stew in gridlocked traffic until hell freezes over before giving money to a Fulton (and DeKalb and Clayton) dominated MARTA to extend MARTA trains into Cobb County from Fulton County.
While as far as Fulton County and the City of Atlanta are concerned, Cobb County residents can continue to enjoy their time sitting in a severely transit-deficient gridlocked traffic hell of their own making.
...Which is why state intervention will probably be needed to establish high-capacity transit links between Cobb and Fulton counties.
How much meaningful movement we see on the issue at the state level will also probably depend on who is elected governor of Georgia in 2018.
Current Lt. Governor Casey Cagle seems to be the point man on expanding high-capacity rail transit throughout the Atlanta metro region and North Georgia because of his close relationship with the Metro Atlanta/North Georgia business community and because any major rail transit expansion would likely directly benefit his home county of Hall (Gainesville) which is one of the most politically powerful counties in the state of Georgia right now.
Other leading 2018 gubernatorial contenders (Congressman Lynn Westmoreland of West Georgia, former Congressman Jack Kingston of Southeast Georgia, Georgia Secretary of State Brian Kemp from Athens) may or may not be all that receptive to expanding transit in metro Atlanta depending on their relationship with the business community and the concerns and makeup of the electorate in mid-term year like 2018 when electorates tend to lean much more conservative than in presidential election years.
See, this is what's wrong with Georgia politics. A medium-sized, rural county is more powerful than any of Atlanta's urban counties.
See, this is what's wrong with Georgia politics. A medium-sized, rural county is more powerful than any of Atlanta's urban counties.
It's not just reflective of what is wrong with Georgia politics but what is wrong with politics, period.
Hall County has grown to be so powerful in Georgia politics because of the money that has been generated from all of the industry in the county....Primarily the money that has been generated from the poultry processing industry in the county.
(...Gainesville and Hall County is one of the world's leading centers of poultry processing.)
It is because of the presence of so much industry in the area that Hall County has long exerted an outsized amount of power on the state's political scene.
But with the sitting governor and lieutenant governor both hailing from the county along with multiple high-ranking state and federal legislators and other high-ranking government officials, Hall County seems to be at the height of its exertion of power on the state's political scene right now.
It's not just reflective of what is wrong with Georgia politics but what is wrong with politics, period.
Hall County has grown to be so powerful in Georgia politics because of the money that has been generated from all of the industry in the county....Primarily the money that has been generated from the poultry processing industry in the county.
(...Gainesville and Hall County is one of the world's leading centers of poultry processing.)
It is because of the presence of so much industry in the area that Hall County has long exerted an outsized amount of power on the state's political scene.
But with the sitting governor and lieutenant governor both hailing from the county along with multiple high-ranking state and federal legislators and other high-ranking government officials, Hall County seems to be at the height of its exertion of power on the state's political scene right now.
And wouldn't like to enjoy a nice relaxing intercity train ride to the Gold Dome?
It's not just reflective of what is wrong with Georgia politics but what is wrong with politics, period.
Hall County has grown to be so powerful in Georgia politics because of the money that has been generated from all of the industry in the county....Primarily the money that has been generated from the poultry processing industry in the county.
(...Gainesville and Hall County is one of the world's leading centers of poultry processing.)
It is because of the presence of so much industry in the area that Hall County has long exerted an outsized amount of power on the state's political scene.
But with the sitting governor and lieutenant governor both hailing from the county along with multiple high-ranking state and federal legislators and other high-ranking government officials, Hall County seems to be at the height of its exertion of power on the state's political scene right now.
It's not all bad, though. Lt. Governor Casey Cagle (an exurban political figure who has been the leading vote-getter in the state in each of the three statewide elections he has run in and won) is probably one of the very few figures who is well-liked and talented enough to talk conservative transit-averse outer-suburban, exurban and rural voters into expanding high-capacity transit throughout much of the North Georgia region outside of MARTA's current rail transit service area of Fulton and DeKalb counties.
And wouldn't like to enjoy a nice relaxing intercity train ride to the Gold Dome?
Yeah, Hall County power interests seem to want a direct rail transit connection between Atlanta and Gainesville because they seem to see that the real estate market is moving towards rail transit connectivity as opposed to just road connectivity alone.
....Which is most likely one of the major reasons that Lt. Governor Casey Cagle has been talking up the concept of state-funded regionalized rail transit so much in recent years.
If they had a passenger train up to Gainesville I'd still probably drive. It's not very far, and what are you going to do about transportation once you get there?
If they had a passenger train up to Gainesville I'd still probably drive. It's not very far, and what are you going to do about transportation once you get there?
Sure, yuk it up at old Arjay's expense. What could some old codger possibly know?
I would respectfully point out that it was moi who suggested several years ago that we could benefit from an Uber-like fleet of private taxis.
Of course I was hooted down and told that my idea was dumb and unworkable.
But what are they saying now?
Quote:
Originally Posted by arjay57
I have always thought that Atlanta was way under-taxied.
We currently have about 1500 licensed taxis. What if we did the following:
(a) Quintupled the size of that fleet and put more cabs in suburbia.
(b) Required all taxis to be modern, fuel-efficient, low emission vehicles. Maybe there's even an electric or hybrid option. (See this for example).
(c) Increased the number of taxi stands and located them closer to residential areas.
(d) Implemented high driver training, safety and maintenance standards. With so many people out of work, I suspect there are tons of people who'd like to drive a cab.
(e) Establish a fare system that eliminates the guesswork about costs.
(f) Set up a system for online booking and payment. (Sort of like the iPhone apps, but make them more widely available).
(g) Established more HOV lanes.
In my mind, there would be several advantages to this. It could be implemented very quickly. It wouldn't require much new infrastructure at all. It would be highly adaptable to our spread out spacial configuration.
I'm sure there are many other tweaks, but it seems to me such a system could be very beneficial.
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