More Highway Widening (Atlanta, Suwanee, Sparta: 2015, to live in, cost)

[jsvh]

Originally Posted by ATLTJL

The problem with the induced demand argument is it can be used for anything and is equally worthless everywhere.

Let's not have more doctors or hospitals....because then people will get sicker.

Let's not farm food....because then people will eat more.

Let's not have running water....because then people will drink more.

Let's not have climate control....because then people will live in less hospitable environments.

Induced demand is not a factor in every market. But honestly, lets throw that out the window since you are hung up on it.

What evidence would it take to convince you that widening a road does not improve anything?

[ATLTJL]

If you do ever get tired of staring at the tail lights, consider finding a new job near transit and nice smaller home

OMG, you mean all everyone has to do is just get a new job? Wow, it's so easy! I mean, why didn't we all think of that? And hey, if you're sick of not having enough things, just go out and get a job that also pays more money. I'm so glad you are here to provide these great solutions!

But dynamic tolling is the best option for keeping roadways moving if that is what you are looking for.

Yeah, I think everyone here knows you're one of the biggest trolls on this board. But if projecting makes you feel better, go ahead. I doubt you're fooling anyone but yourself.

Sad truth is that would make it better.

Is it trolling if I call another poster dumb? Probably, so better not....

Not sure what criteria you are looking at that make you think it is not working intown

10th Street by the park got rid of a lane of traffic and added a bike lane. And moving on 10th is now a dream!

My intown commute is about as good as it can be considering it is by car

Good for you and your commute. But we're not talking about only commuting here, we are talking about freight. Did you forget that Atlanta is a logistics hub? And what are you gonna do if your office moves to Alpharetta? I mean, I guess you are just so skilled and in demand that you'll simply find another job that meets your criteria. But can you at least acknowledge that most people don't have that luxury?

Mostly two-laned tree-lined streets that haven't been widened since they were built 80 years ago. A nice 25 mph flow.

You must live in some terrible part of town that nobody else wants to because those are the only parts of the city of Atlanta I can think of that enjoy steady flows during commuter hours on surface streets. Maybe others have higher standards?

[ATLTJL]

What evidence would it take to convince you that widening a road does not improve anything?

I think I'd probably need to see I-95 reduced to one lane along the entire eastern seaboard and have it have no ill-effect on traffic. If you can prove that it wouldn't, I won't argue.

[jsvh]

Originally Posted by ATLTJL

Good for you and your commute. But we're not talking about only commuting here, we are talking about freight. Did you forget that Atlanta is a logistics hub?

A. Atlanta was a freight hub even before cars were a thing.

B. Even today, only about a third of freight is carried by trucks.

C. You act like by not widening highways the only alternative is to scrap every motor vehicle and destroy all the infrastructure. No, I can assure you logistics companies would very much prefers existing highways with tolls to keep them moving over more freeway lanes.

Originally Posted by ATLTJL

And what are you gonna do if your office moves to Alpharetta? I mean, I guess you are just so skilled and in demand that you'll simply find another job that meets your criteria. But can you at least acknowledge that most people don't have that luxury?

I do not accept that. You may feel like a slave to your job, but everyone has the freedom to quit and seek another job. Now, I will acknowledge changing your job / home often requires some very hard choices / sacrifices. But they are your choices / sacrifices to make.

[jsvh]

Originally Posted by ATLTJL

I think I'd probably need to see I-95 reduced to one lane along the entire eastern seaboard and have it have no ill-effect on traffic. If you can prove that it wouldn't, I won't argue.

I see. I'll get right on "proving" that. In the mean time, there are lots of examples of other road diets right here in Atlanta and elsewhere. Even entire highway closures. But yes, I guess we can never know for sure if road widenings do any good unless we reduce all of I-95 to one lane.

[samiwas1]

Originally Posted by jsvh

I do feel sorry for the folks that have to commute on I-85 through Gwinnett everyday. Especially if they have any hope that this project will result in any improvement. I have sat in that traffic a couple times and it is pretty miserable. If you do that, you really got to ask yourself as you look across the 14 grid-locked lanes everyday: "when do you give up on this lifestyle?". Your commute was only getting worse and worse and this will just accelerate the problem. Another 10 mins of traffic each day? 20? 30?

I would never want to live that far out, but the only trade off isn't living directly in the core and relegating yourself to your feet and trains.

If you do ever get tired of staring at the tail lights, consider finding a new job near transit and nice smaller home. It is something that you can control and it is pretty great not to dread your commute.

I wouldn't just have to "find another job". I'd have to find a whole new career. And I absolutely love by job and career, so having to find some corporate-style job just so that I could take transit would not be a great trade-off. I also don't want a smaller home. I live in 1,392 square feet right now and it sucks.

Here's the thing...I may stare at tail lights for 20-30 minutes some days, but it means that all the rest of the days, I might have something better than living in a dense concrete jungle if that's not what makes me happy. And guess what? That wouldn't make me happy.

Finding a job & home that give you more than one realistic method for getting to work is best.

Yes, but it severely limits your options currently.

Sad truth is that would make it better.

The sad truth is that you actually believe that.

At what point do you at least accept that road widinings are not making anything better? What evidence would you need to see? Atlanta highways widened to 30 lanes yet still daily grid-lock? Larger cities with much smaller or no highways? A major highway entierly closed without ill-effects?

Name one large or even medium city with no highways. Please. Just one.

My intown commute is about as good as it can be considering it is by car. 20 minutes on surface streets. Mostly two-laned tree-lined streets that haven't been widened since they were built 80 years ago. A nice 25 mph flow. But I do look forward to just taking the train again after my move.

If I'm commuting intown, nearly every trip is under 20 minutes on surface streets, but I do not live in downtown or midtown. Unfortunately, there isn't a plethora of film/tv studios in town. Most are just OTP.

[cwkimbro]

Originally Posted by jsvh

A. Atlanta was a freight hub even before cars were a thing.

B. Even today, only about a third of freight is carried by trucks.

C. You act like by not widening highways the only alternative is to scrap every motor vehicle and destroy all the infrastructure. No, I can assure you logistics companies would very much prefers existing highways with tolls to keep them moving over more freeway lanes.




I do not accept that. You may feel like a slave to your job, but everyone has the freedom to quit and seek another job. Now, I will acknowledge changing your job / home often requires some very hard choices / sacrifices. But they are your choices / sacrifices to make.

JSVH,

I read this and you're only hurting your arguments here.

This old mantra that everything that is a roadway and highway must be bad is really messing with you too much.

I believe it is important that Atlanta remain the largest freight and logistics hub in the southeast. Over 50 years the population in South will be far beyond that of what it is now.

That will only continue to happen if we build the infrastructure for what the South is like when it is a far busier and populated place. That is why there is a plan to 3 lane most of the interstates to the borders.

Actually a great deal of freight is carried by trucks for inland use. None of it is by sea. That leaves pipelines, rail, and trucks. The only way trucks magically could possibly become 1/3 is if someone twists statistics that calculate the value or weight of the freight on a specific metric. In terms of containers or truckbeds of materials for inland transit, I guarantee you that ratio is wildly wrong.

The reality is pipes transport very heavy and valuable materials (ie. oil, gas, etc...), but it is not a feasible alternative for most tangible goods and materials we need.

Rail isn't either. While it will grow and continue to be important, it doesn't magically take trucks off the road either. It is primarily used to move heavy materials, frequently raw materials (ie. mine deposits, Coal, etc...), however it can be exorbitantly expensive for most lightweight point-to-point freight needing to move between regional distribution warehouses of different manufacturing facilities.

The best thing rail can do is try to attract freight headed for single big points going into the future, largely freight to and from seaports (ie. the inland ports). That is still just a single-type use. It isn't a one-size-fits-all solution for most freight. However, the harsh reality is trucking will be extremely important now and going into the future because companies need goods and materials to move between a wide variety of points that aren't always a part of collective site that is efficient for rail use. In fact, it is largely inefficient unless it is an extremely heavy material.


Either way, it is too short-sighted to keep using this anti-roads arguments applied to every single thing. This is about an inter-regional road network and your mind is stuck on this make-believe mentality that people living near the Gwinnett/Hall Border are driving downtown in mass... they aren't. The arguments are tired. We are growing region and the world doesn't magically function the way you would like it to.

[samiwas1]

Originally Posted by ATLTJL

Maybe others have higher standards?

Well, that much has been proven.

Originally Posted by jsvh

A. Atlanta was a freight hub even before cars were a thing.

And if you could get the rest of the country back on board with train freight, we could get a lot of these damn trucks off the road. But, you see...that ain't happening.

B. Even today, only about a third of freight is carried by trucks.

Yet, they still make up a large percentage of the vehicles on 285 an the OTP interstates.

C. You act like by not widening highways the only alternative is to scrap every motor vehicle and destroy all the infrastructure. No, I can assure you logistics companies would very much prefers existing highways with tolls to keep them moving over more freeway lanes.

Wait, wait, wait...you think logistics companies would much rather pay tolls for every truck, every trip? You cannot be that delusional.

I do not accept that. You may feel like a slave to your job, but everyone has the freedom to quit and seek another job. Now, I will acknowledge changing your job / home often requires some very hard choices / sacrifices. But they are your choices / sacrifices to make.

Yes, but you act like it is just a simple decision to change jobs and careers overnight. That a job that meets not only your expectations or qualifications is always available. And that you can easily just find jobs right on transit. Of course "right on transit" has been defined as a mile away or more. And those choices and sacrifices may be much more than what you seem to think. Why would giving up the career that I've wanted since I was literally a child just so I could go car free be even remotely worth considering?

You do act like changing jobs is as easy as walking out the door one day and showing up to a new place the next. It's somewhat laughable.

Answer me this: do you think that you are on the very lunatic fringe of the car-free disciples?

Originally Posted by jsvh

I see. I'll get right on "proving" that.

How about not proving it (since that's not possible), but just giving your opinion on it...

[primaltech]

Road dieting is one thing for very select urban locations, like Downtown Decatur, where things are compact and actually walkable. And transit at least exists.

If you think the same formula applies for rural outer suburban and exurban areas, you're an idiot. Taking away a lane in unincorporated Dacula causes the exact same number of cars to have to fit into one fewer lane. That's it. Period.

It won't change anyone's patterns. It will just make their lives miserable. (Not that you give a crap about the despicable 95% of people in this area, who rely on cars.)

[ATLTJL]

PS - I'm sorry I called you a troll. I thought you said it to me first. You were talking about tolling, and I read "trolling." So please accept my apology on that