Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
Gwinnett will still need to flood the zone with buses in order to provide meaningful transit to most people in the county.
According to MARTA, "The data indicate that as a result of constructing the northeast line extension, the overall number of new transit riders throughout the entire region is forecast to increase by 9,843 riders."
That's a very small drop in the bucket compared to the number of Gwinnettians heading out to work each day.
The good news is that you can get the bus fleet up and rolling within a couple of years, whereas heavy rail could be decades out. Why not go ahead and pick the low hanging fruit?
That estimate is also from 2007. A LOT has chnged for both MARTA and Gwinnett since then.
We also don't need to flood the county with buses, but rather we need a comprehensive service plan to provide appropriate levels of service within the county.
Gwinnett will still need to flood the zone with buses in order to provide meaningful transit to most people in the county.
I don't know, I'd argue that transit in Gwinnett county is very much commuter. Rail is all that matters, what Gwinnett needs is a MARTA extension with giant stations that have huge parking decks. Because people will ride MARTA into the city, and that's about it. It's not like Gwinnett county is ever going to be a place where the "I can live without a car" crowd are going to live. So I'm not really worried about the last mile, just a way to access the larger rail transit network.
Now, a network of buses might be nice....but I don't think they have to be anything bigger and better than traditional buses. They don't need right of way, just some basic routes that go between major spots. Transit in Gwinnett is likely never going to offer a turnkey door-to-door solution, and I don't think it has to.
I don't know, I'd argue that transit in Gwinnett county is very much commuter. Rail is all that matters, what Gwinnett needs is a MARTA extension with giant stations that have huge parking decks. Because people will ride MARTA into the city, and that's about it. It's not like Gwinnett county is ever going to be a place where the "I can live without a car" crowd are going to live. So I'm not really worried about the last mile, just a way to access the larger rail transit network.
Now, a network of buses might be nice....but I don't think they have to be anything bigger and better than traditional buses. They don't need right of way, just some basic routes that go between major spots. Transit in Gwinnett is likely never going to offer a turnkey door-to-door solution, and I don't think it has to.
Part of the problem is that Gwinnett is so diffuse. The majority of people work somewhere in the county or in a nearby area.
And of course, commuting to work only accounts for about 20% of overall travel.
So you've got Gwinnettians going every which way. They're not bunched up in tight residential districts nor are they heading for the same destinations.
That's why you need a robust bus system if you want meaningful public transit in a place like Gwinnett.
Large commuter station TODs, with plenty of P&R garages. This will allow Gwinnett residents, who are use to driving everywhere, to drive to the station and commute to major employment centers. Upon returning, they can run errands at the TODs before getting into their cars to head home. Cuts down on the need for vehicle trips between station and home.
MARTA could implement it's new tiered bus service along roads in the county, where it makes sense. (ART, Frequent local, supporting local services)
The vast majority of the residents of Gwinnett own a car, prefer to drive everywhere, probably moved out there in the first place for that very reason, and would never even bother with a local bus route. It would be a total waste of time and money to penetrate most of the county.
However there are some corridors where a local bus service makes sense and would get ridership. I would say those are:
Jimmy Carter/Holcomb Bridge
Singleton/Steve Reynolds
Peachtree Corners Circle
Pleasant Hill
Indian Trail
Beaver Ruin
Satellite
Old Norcross
78/Stone Mtn Hwy
Peachtree Industrial (but only out to McGinniss Ferry)
Basically, wherever the apartment complexes are, and most of the diversity. And just forget the outer half of the county.
And if you want to flood something with buses, flood the Peach Pass lane with a stream of buses, running commuter express runs to Lindbergh from the various park&rides in the county. Better yet, make that lane a bus-only system.
Keep in mind why Gwinnettians are asking for MARTA and transit. It's not to get to their local Piggly Wiggly down the road. They mostly have cars, so it's not about mobility such as the situation in Clayton. It's about commuting options, particularly into the main job centers of the metro. And then secondarily it's about bringing people and jobs out to Gwinnett via MARTA.
I don't know, I'd argue that transit in Gwinnett county is very much commuter. Rail is all that matters, what Gwinnett needs is a MARTA extension with giant stations that have huge parking decks. Because people will ride MARTA into the city, and that's about it. It's not like Gwinnett county is ever going to be a place where the "I can live without a car" crowd are going to live. So I'm not really worried about the last mile, just a way to access the larger rail transit network.
Now, a network of buses might be nice....but I don't think they have to be anything bigger and better than traditional buses. They don't need right of way, just some basic routes that go between major spots. Transit in Gwinnett is likely never going to offer a turnkey door-to-door solution, and I don't think it has to.
Quote:
Originally Posted by primaltech
The vast majority of the residents of Gwinnett own a car, prefer to drive everywhere, probably moved out there in the first place for that very reason, and would never even bother with a local bus route. It would be a total waste of time and money to penetrate most of the county.
However there are some corridors where a local bus service makes sense and would get ridership. I would say those are:
Jimmy Carter/Holcomb Bridge
Singleton/Steve Reynolds
Peachtree Corners Circle
Pleasant Hill
Indian Trail
Beaver Ruin
Satellite
Old Norcross
78/Stone Mtn Hwy
Peachtree Industrial (but only out to McGinniss Ferry)
Basically, wherever the apartment complexes are, and most of the diversity. And just forget the outer half of the county.
And if you want to flood something with buses, flood the Peach Pass lane with a stream of buses, running commuter express runs to Lindbergh from the various park&rides in the county. Better yet, make that lane a bus-only system.
Keep in mind why Gwinnettians are asking for MARTA and transit. It's not to get to their local Piggly Wiggly down the road. They mostly have cars, so it's not about mobility such as the situation in Clayton. It's about commuting options, particularly into the main job centers of the metro. And then secondarily it's about bringing people and jobs out to Gwinnett via MARTA.
Both of these sentiments just scream lack of vision to me. Gwinnett is a growing county, it is a county that has historic density thag could once again be built up. It has current density and walkable nodes where one could get away without a car if they had a way between nodes.
Just because the county is currently reliant on the car in almost everyway, doesn't mean that building TOD and connecting existing walkable nodes with transit won't shift current residents' attitudes about living without a car, nor does it mean that new residents won't take advantage of the connectivity to live without a car. This is ESPECIALY true along high-capacity transit lines like heavy rail, frequent commuter rail, and bus rapid transit lines.
Y'all can say it's not likely all you want, but if it's never offered, then how the heck will we know for sure?
Part of the problem is that Gwinnett is so diffuse. The majority of people work somewhere in the county or in a nearby area.
And of course, commuting to work only accounts for about 20% of overall travel.
So you've got Gwinnettians going every which way. They're not bunched up in tight residential districts nor are they heading for the same destinations.
That's why you need a robust bus system if you want meaningful public transit in a place like Gwinnett.
Where Gwinnettians work:
As has been said many times in the past, transit is only half about serving current needs. The rest is about serving future needs and establishing a sustainable way to grow. This requires high-capaciy transit as an anchor, with additional bus services addining into it.
We shouldn't forgo the high-capacity anchor for a flood of buses that likely won't pay for themselves in added tax revenues. There should be a solid bus system filling in gaps between the high capacity transit routes, but it should be applied based on the current needs, future needs, and the teired system MARTA has now begun implimenting. Not a simple flood.
Quote:
Originally Posted by primaltech
Another thing: run the buses on the main roads and don't ever leave those roads. No loopy routes. No routes at all, just corridors.
And nothing below the "frequent local" tier should ever exist.
This assumes that there are NO places that make more sense based both on current need and future need that would constitute using local services and circulators on local roads. That's just not how people work, nor is that how walkible places work.
Again and again and again, we need a logical application of all tiers of service that MARTA offers, to ignore any part, on either end, is to drastically cripple our ability to properly scale service to the current and future needs of the county.
Quote:
Originally Posted by cqholt
Large commuter station TODs, with plenty of P&R garages. This will allow Gwinnett residents, who are use to driving everywhere, to drive to the station and commute to major employment centers. Upon returning, they can run errands at the TODs before getting into their cars to head home. Cuts down on the need for vehicle trips between station and home.
MARTA could implement it's new tiered bus service along roads in the county, where it makes sense. (ART, Frequent local, supporting local services)
Both of these sentiments just scream lack of vision to me.
And some of your posts about Gwinnett scream that you've never lived in Gwinnett, and/or don't fully understand the county. I lived there 23 years... I personally know a whole lot of people in the county, and I intimately know the general type of people that reside in most of the vast area of that county. They like getting around in their cars, and both their subdivisions, their destinations, and the density level and infrastructure design of their county, all make it far preferable than transit ever could be. Period.
I'm not saying nobody will ride a local bus route on any given winding country road in the back half of the county, but so few % will be responsive to it, that it wouldn't an efficient use of taxes and resources.
Whereas some of the corridors that GCT currently runs its routes, plus some other corridors in the inner half, would be appropriate for high quality, frequent local bus service, and would get those regular riders and full buses as you see on some corridors in DeKalb. Particularly where the apartment complexes are, and the immigrant communities.
Quote:
It has current density and walkable nodes where one could get away without a car if they had a way between nodes.
Yeah, those are the downtowns, and those should eventually be connected to each other and to Atlanta via commuter rail. But 90% of the county lives in unincorporated auto-driven suburbia-sprawl outside those.
Quote:
Again and again and again, we need a logical application of all tiers of service that MARTA offers, to ignore any part, on either end, is to drastically cripple our ability to properly scale service to the current and future needs of the county.
Oh we get it. Basically you want to apply the same type of woeful, borderline-useless MARTA coverage strategy that's been in place in Fulton and DeKalb since the 70's, which everyone always complains about, and only a small number of people who own cars regularly use, even in those INNER counties, which are far more urban that Gwinnett is (and always will be.)
Transit mega-advocates can't seem to get any perspective on this stuff, because y'all are a special case who actually likes transit (even crappy transit). But you gotta try to step outside your own self, and into the boots of someone who doesn't have any particular bias either way on transit, but will get around in the best way available to them. Which is... cars! And you seem to want it to stay that way, I guess.
If a local bus isn't basically close to the "ART" grade or better, it's useless to choice riders, period. And will not get very much adoption.
Now, if you want to make a bus route that stays on Satellite Blvd with no turns, and just runs the whole length of that road basically up and down (with maybe a connection to a train station at the end), that runs every 10 or 15 minutes, 24x7x365, with spaced well apart, premium high quality stops- and with other ART features like offboard fare handling- then we're talking. Then you and I are on the same page, and you can expect people in the area to try it out and then become regulars (even white folks.)
Otherwise, there is a reason that Georgians associate the bus with poor people. Because if you have a car, the regular old bus is a total joke. In so many ways. And that will only be even more pronounced in a highly suburban county like Gwinnett.
They like getting around in their cars, and both their subdivisions, their destinations, and the density level and infrastructure design of their county, all make it far preferable than transit ever could be. Period.
Or is that the only choice they have been given in Gwinnett County?
Or is that the only choice they have been given in Gwinnett County?
It's 20% that at most, and 80% that it pure and simple is flat out designed for cars, whether or not the best transit in the world existed or not.
You two need to go live in Gwinnett for 20 years and get back to me. Live in a house where it takes you a half hour walk just to exit your own subdivision, and an hour walk to the nearest anything other than maybe a single gas station convenience store, at most.
Because that example would be very typical in most of Gwinnett. Driving is hellllllaaa faster/easier/better.
Now, as I was talking about earlier, I think you could do some kind of taxi-based MARTA solution that might be awesome.
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
