Let's Leave I-85 Closed (Atlanta, Decatur: safer, pollution, trains)

[bu2]

Originally Posted by JPD

There are numerous other routes to I-20 (Candler, Hairston to Wesley Chapel, 2nd to Flat Shoals or Gresham, Glenwood, etc.) But maybe none of those are better options. People have a propensity to only know one way to get places, and that is most definitely contributing to this mess. But I guess that works in my favor, so if nobody wants to entertain my suggestions then...thank you for not fouling up my commute.

Look at a map. Candler and Columbia make no sense unless you are south of Decatur and probably already use I-20. You go east and south when with the same distance it takes you just to get to I-20, you would nearly be downtown if you went straight west. Plus if you are north of Decatur, you have to navigate through downtown Decatur.

[JPD]

Originally Posted by bu2

Look at a map. Candler and Columbia make no sense unless you are south of Decatur and probably already use I-20. You go east and south when with the same distance it takes you just to get to I-20, you would nearly be downtown if you went straight west. Plus if you are north of Decatur, you have to navigate through downtown Decatur.

I don't buy that, considering the situation. Everything's f-ed up in every direction, right? People might need to go a few miles out of their way for a little while.

I'm offering alternates that might help others and will most definitely make things worse for me. Let's not overlook that.

[Mossberg]

I-20 West between I-285 and the downtown connector this morning was FAR worse than it normally is. It was stop and go from the perimeter into the city. It normally doesn't start backing up until around Flat Shoals or Glenwood.

It is actually backing up in the afternoon also near Boulevard and this almost never happens in an evening rush. I-20 East was also worse than normal this afternoon.

There is definitely a difference now that folks are back from spring break.

[Western Urbanite]

Originally Posted by samiwas1

Just answer this question flat-out: Do you think we could remove freeways in Atlanta without beefing up our arterial roads or or transit network ahead of time, and see no real adverse effects?

It depends.
GA 10 could easily be torn out, with land sold to developers and/or turned into a park, and no change would be noticed.
A road like I-85 northwest of the Downtown Connector, or I-20 east of it could probably be torn out, but MARTA would have to be built along their corridors.
The Downtown Connector, I-75 south of Downtown, I 85 northeast of downtown, and I-20 west of downtown would absolutely need new road and transit capacity to be built before they're torn down, but that capacity shouldn't open until the minute that road closes, or else you run into a political nightmare.

[samiwas1]

Originally Posted by BELMO45

GDOT has to do a better job notifying people somehow on the buford highway operation. They continue to randomly close access to it southbound off Sidney Marcus and nobody knows what it's open and when it's not. It was closed at 7am this morning now it's open again. This is over clogging Piedmont and Lindberg as people are coming down thinking they can use it and then realizing they can't.

Yup. I went that way Sunday, only to find it closed, after seeing people coming from it the previous day.

Originally Posted by Western Urbanite

It depends.
GA 10 could easily be torn out, with land sold to developers and/or turned into a park, and no change would be noticed.
A road like I-85 northwest of the Downtown Connector, or I-20 east of it could probably be torn out, but MARTA would have to be built along their corridors.
The Downtown Connector, I-75 south of Downtown, I 85 northeast of downtown, and I-20 west of downtown would absolutely need new road and transit capacity to be built before they're torn down, but that capacity shouldn't open until the minute that road closes, or else you run into a political nightmare.

Sure. I won't even bother arguing with this. I have a feeling it would go about as well as debating with jsvh.

[Born 2 Roll]

Originally Posted by samiwas1

Just answer this question flat-out: Do you think we could remove freeways in Atlanta without beefing up our arterial roads or or transit network ahead of time, and see no real adverse effects?

Originally Posted by Western Urbanite

It depends.
GA 10 could easily be torn out, with land sold to developers and/or turned into a park, and no change would be noticed.

Under a purely hypothetical scenario (and probably in a parallel universe) where we are removing freeways and major arterial roads, removing Georgia 10 and replacing with a park would be highly preferable.

But in reality, removing Georgia 10 would be noticed significantly because Georgia 10 serves as an important arterial link between US 29-78-278 Ponce De Leon Avenue/Scott Boulevard/Lawrenceville Highway (a roadway that serves as an important arterial link between Atlanta's East/Northeastern suburbs and Downtown/Midtown Atlanta) and Downtown Atlanta.

Removing Georgia 10 would force heavy commuter traffic onto smaller Intown collector streets (particularly onto Intown East Atlanta streets like Highland and North Highland avenues) that are much less capable of handling heavy commuter traffic than Georgia 10.

It should also be noted that Georgia 10 is already classified as a linear park (Freedom Parkway) east and north/northeast along its path from the I-75/I-85 Downtown Connector to US 29-78-278 Ponce De Leon Avenue and US 23/GA 42 Moreland Avenue. Georgia 10 Freedom Parkway was originally proposed to be a freeway but was built as a linear parkway as a compromise with area neighborhoods that had successfully defeated the original freeway proposal.

Originally Posted by Western Urbanite

A road like I-85 northwest of the Downtown Connector, or I-20 east of it could probably be torn out, but MARTA would have to be built along their corridors.

I think that you meant "I-75 northwest of the Downtown Connector" and that is a good assessment that a transit upgrade and replacement would have to occur if those freeways were to be removed under a hypothetical scenario.

Originally Posted by Western Urbanite

The Downtown Connector, I-75 south of Downtown, I 85 northeast of downtown, and I-20 west of downtown would absolutely need new road and transit capacity to be built before they're torn down, but that capacity shouldn't open until the minute that road closes, or else you run into a political nightmare.

That is also a good assessment that new road and transit capacity would be needed to be built before major freeways like I-75 South, I-85 Northeast and I-20 West could be removed in a hypothetical freeway removal scenario. It also appears that you might have meant to say that that those roads should not be closed and removed until that new replacement transit and road capacity was open and operating in this hypothetical freeway removal scenario.

Though, in reality, removing any and/or all of those roads (especially the I-75/I-85 Downtown Connector, I-75 South and I-85 Northeast along with I-75 Northwest) would be a bad idea because of how those roads have become critical economic links in an Atlanta city and Atlanta metropolitan economy that has grown up, been built around and become closely and intensely linked to those freeways and the entire Atlanta metropolitan freeway system as a whole.

Atlanta's economy is so closely tied in with the region's freeway system that the economy and freeway system are basically as one at many critically key points and in many respects.

Ripping out the central part of Atlanta's existing freeway system (including the Downtown Connector and the I-75, I-85 and I-20 radial spokes that feed into it) would be like ripping out the very heart and lifeblood of the region's (and the state's) economy.

The highly-robust direct ground transportation links between the world-leading Atlanta Airport and major business and commercial districts like Downtown Atlanta, Midtown Atlanta, Buckhead and Perimeter Center that the freeway system anchors is a critical part of the Atlanta's region's economy that likely would be severely adversely affected and altered were the central part of the freeway system to be removed inside of the I-285 Perimeter.

The ITP freeway system (along with MARTA and the world-leading ATL Airport) has facilitated the explosive growth of districts like Downtown, Midtown, Buckhead and Perimeter Center.

The freeway connections between major regional activity centers like ATL Airport, Downtown, Midtown, Buckhead and Perimeter Center has been a dominant facilitating feature of Atlanta's explosive metropolitan and regional growth and continued robust economic performance, particularly over the last 25-30 years or so since the completion of the massive "Freeing-the-Freeways" expansion project of the 1980's and since the completion of the GA 400 Extension through Buckhead and North Atlanta. Without the ITP portion of Atlanta's freeway system, the extremely robust economic performance of those business/commercial districts likely takes a massive hit.

It should also be noted that a growing consensus exists within the Atlanta region that the aforementioned freeway corridors (both ITP and OTP) are already in need of a significant amount of new and increased transit capacity to operate along with the existing freeway roadways.

Even with the continued existence of its freeway system, Atlanta appears to need a vastly increased amount of transit infrastructure to be implemented.

Removing the central part of the ITP portion of Atlanta's freeway system (and replacing it a close-in inner loop/inner perimeter road) would bring about much more negative disruption to the city's established neighborhood development patterns and the city's and region's economy than such a plan most likely would be worth.

[cqholt]

Convert all existing HOV, left lane lanes on freeways to HOT or dedicated bus lanes and run 2-way express bus service (15 minute headways during peak hours), with dedicated ramps to P&R stations.

[Gulch]

Originally Posted by cqholt

Convert all existing HOV, left lane lanes on freeways to HOT or dedicated bus lanes and run 2-way express bus service (15 minute headways during peak hours), with dedicated ramps to P&R stations.

I'd even go a step further and have GDOT barrier-separate all of these lanes as was originally intended during "Freeing the Freeways."

[bu2]

Originally Posted by Gulch

I'd even go a step further and have GDOT barrier-separate all of these lanes as was originally intended during "Freeing the Freeways."

When you look at how these work compared to how barrier separated lanes work, its clear that they are not nearly as effective. And they clearly are a safety hazard. You can have people switch lanes from a stop onto a lane where people might be going 55 mph.

[Western Urbanite]

Originally Posted by Born 2 Roll

I think that you meant "I-75 northwest of the Downtown Connector" and that is a good assessment that a transit upgrade and replacement would have to occur if those freeways were to be removed under a hypothetical scenario.

Yes.

Originally Posted by Born 2 Roll

It also appears that you might have meant to say that that those roads should not be closed and removed until that new replacement transit and road capacity was open and operating in this hypothetical freeway removal scenario.

No. You don't want to open new capacity while old capacity is still operating, or you'll restart the war between those who want all freeways gone, and those who want to bulldoze every neighborhood for more.