What would be some Realistic MARTA expansion dates? (Atlanta, Alpharetta: maintenance, taxes)

[waronxmas]

Originally Posted by fourthwarden

I hate this kind of argument.

It's literally the worst and laziest argument.

[cqholt]

Originally Posted by waronxmas

It's literally the worst and laziest argument.

Are you saying that so-called LRT-successful cities (eg: Portland, Denver, Seattle, Minneapolis) do not have an advantage because they are overwhelming white?

[bryantm3]

Originally Posted by primaltech

No, I mean I was just talking about commuter rail fare. It's $9 to ride their fancy new commuter rail in Denver, that's where I got that figure.

Honestly, I'm open to whatever under the sun, just as long as we're getting to the point of actually having commuter rail, of actually having regional and metropolitan rail transit beyond just the very limited current MARTA train system. It'd be nice.

I think a lot of people want other options besides the freeway traffic every morning. But maybe I'm "out of touch".

sorry, i guess i misunderstood your post. i was thinking you were talking about going to a $9 charge one-way systemwide. it is almost that bad with BART in san francisco, they use distance based fares and my guess would be that it's a contributing factor to their current problem of extreme income inequality, being that it's not only unaffordable to live in SF, it's unaffordable to take the subway in, too. i think a couple of years ago when i checked online the top fare ended up being higher than $11 which is psychotic.

i would not be entirely opposed to this price point, especially for regional commuter rail going to places further out like athens, macon, gainesville, etc. where the $9 cost would be justified, but i am very wary about getting the government to fund and maintain a monopoly with a for-profit entity, it just screams 'corruption'.

[primaltech]

Our north suburbs are so stubbornly tax-averse, that we will get better traction on regional rail with a model that requires as bare minimal tax increases as possible, in favor of long term investments by consortium of the business community, who will use the transit as a loss leader in order to make their money from the for-profit developments built simultaneously around it.

Fare should be about normal commuter rail fare, and based on zones. I'd say $5 from Cumberland to Downtown ($10 round trip), and $7.50 from Marietta to Downtown ($15 round trip). With a free transfer to MARTA.

Now that I'm sitting here thinking about it, it would probably be better to have the CRT be run by a separate entity from MARTA. (GRTA probably.) Since they'd both use the same Breeze card to pay, but the fare model for each system would be completely different.

MARTA should stay with the $2.50 one-way, $5 round trip, free transfers everywhere model. And CobbLinc bus would still use that fare model as well. There would be free transfers from the GRTA commuter rail to MARTA and CobbLinc, and $2.50-off discounted transfers in the other direction. Something like that. All tied together with the Breeze card unified account.

That way if you wanted to take MARTA to Five Points and then the GRTA train to Cumberland to see the Braves play, it would be $5 one way, $10 total. The base MARTA fare plus a half price short-range commuter rail trip.

I think something like that would be appropriate.

[cqholt]

Originally Posted by primaltech

Our north suburbs are so stubbornly tax-averse, that we will get better traction on regional rail with a model that requires as bare minimal tax increases as possible, in favor of long term investments by consortium of the business community, who will use the transit as a loss leader in order to make their money from the for-profit developments built simultaneously around it.

Fare should be about normal commuter rail fare, and based on zones. I'd say $5 from Cumberland to Downtown ($10 round trip), and $7.50 from Marietta to Downtown ($15 round trip). With a free transfer to MARTA.

Now that I'm sitting here thinking about it, it would probably be better to have the CRT be run by a separate entity from MARTA. (GRTA probably.) Since they'd both use the same Breeze card to pay, but the fare model for each system would be completely different.

MARTA should stay with the $2.50 one-way, $5 round trip, free transfers everywhere model. And CobbLinc bus would still use that fare model as well. There would be free transfers from the GRTA commuter rail to MARTA and CobbLinc, and $2.50-off discounted transfers in the other direction. Something like that. All tied together with the Breeze card unified account.

That way if you wanted to take MARTA to Five Points and then the GRTA train to Cumberland to see the Braves play, it would be $5 one way, $10 total. The base MARTA fare plus a half price short-range commuter rail trip.

I think something like that would be appropriate.

But we'd still have to transfer to a shuttle at Cumberland. People complained about that at Turner Field.

[primaltech]

Originally Posted by cqholt

But we'd still have to transfer to a shuttle at Cumberland. People complained about that at Turner Field.

Not necessarily. I mean, there is a pedestrian bridge from Cumberland Mall to the Galleria over 41, and there will soon be a completed pedestrian bridge from the Galleria to STP over 285. And I assume there will be a clear pedestrian path linking those 2. Also I'm betting the Cumberland train station would likely have a pedestrian stairs access on the mall side of Cumberland Blvd, so you wouldn't have to cross the road.

So it wouldn't be a precarious walk in any way. It would just be a longer walk, about a mile. So you wouldn't have to take the shuttle bus if you don't want to. (In the summer time, I'm sure most would.)

[Born 2 Roll]

Originally Posted by cqholt

Denver and Portland are more homogeneous populations.

Originally Posted by fourthwarden

I hate this kind of argument.

Originally Posted by waronxmas

It's literally the worst and laziest argument.

It may not be the most liked argument, but cq's statement about Denver's and Portland's more homogenous populations nonetheless raises a critically important and very valid point.

That point is that race has been one of the main reasons why rail transit operates in only two counties of an expansive Atlanta metropolitan area that is home to about 6.5 million residents and covers 29 counties and an Atlanta CSA (Consolidated Statistical Area) that covers up to 39 counties in North Georgia.

Race is the reason why high-capacity rail transit does not operate in heavily-populated core metro Atlanta counties like Cobb (748,000), Gwinnett (907,000) and the part of North Fulton County beyond Sandy Springs (280,000).

Race has not been a major social and political impediment to rail transit expansion in the Denver and Portland metro areas like it has been in the Atlanta metro area where the traditionally majority-white areas of the suburban and exurban periphery have long shunned transit connections to the traditionally majority-black areas of Atlanta's urban core.

[cqholt]

Originally Posted by primaltech

Not necessarily. I mean, there is a pedestrian bridge from Cumberland Mall to the Galleria over 41, and there will soon be a completed pedestrian bridge from the Galleria to STP over 285. And I assume there will be a clear pedestrian path linking those 2. Also I'm betting the Cumberland train station would likely have a pedestrian stairs access on the mall side of Cumberland Blvd, so you wouldn't have to cross the road.

So it wouldn't be a precarious walk in any way. It would just be a longer walk, about a mile. So you wouldn't have to take the shuttle bus if you don't want to. (In the summer time, I'm sure most would.)

Georgia State Station was 1 mile and people complained about that.

[primaltech]

Originally Posted by cqholt

Georgia State Station was 1 mile and people complained about that.

Well, if a commuter rail connection existed, probably only 5% to maybe 10% would use it to get to the Braves. If the station was right at the stadium, that number might be more like 10% to 15% of patrons.

But still, most people will always drive, as proven time and time again, with everything.

The majority of people in and around Decatur for example, drive to most everything they can't walk to. And they've had MARTA rail since the 70's.

Transit will never be the preferred choice over vehicles. But it still absolutely needs to be there. Mainly just to help manage the freeway congestion.

[Born 2 Roll]

Originally Posted by primaltech

Well, if a commuter rail connection existed, probably only 5% to maybe 10% would use it to get to the Braves. If the station was right at the stadium, that number might be more like 10% to 15% of patrons.

But still, most people will always drive, as proven time and time again, with everything.

The majority of people in and around Decatur for example, drive to most everything they can't walk to. And they've had MARTA rail since the 70's.

Transit will never be the preferred choice over vehicles. But it still absolutely needs to be there. Mainly just to help manage the freeway congestion.

primaltech makes a critically important point here....That high-capacity transit is an absolute need as a means of helping to manage freeway congestion, particularly in a large major metro region like Atlanta where the exploding population continues to generate massive increases in the amount of vehicular and freight truck traffic on a limited arterial road network.