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That logistically, Atlanta is in need of a second perimeter highway that would need to be closer in than where the Outer Perimeter/Northern Arc was proposed to be built back in the late 1990's and early 2000's.
But politically, the construction of a new closer-in Outer Perimeter/Northern Arc highway would be impossible to execute (or even propose) because of the severe lack of feasibility of proposing to build such a road through such highly-affluent suburban neighborhoods (particularly on the Northside) where the original farther-out Outer Perimeter/Northern Arc concept of the late-'90's/early-'00's was so overwhelmingly unpopular with the public.
One of the major factors that has worked against the construction of such an Outer Perimeter superhighway around Atlanta that might be built much more easily around Texas cities like Houston and Dallas is the culture of so-called Nimbyism that has understandably sprouted from such highly-affluent and highly-desirable suburban residential areas in outlying areas like OTP North Metro Atlanta.
Understandably, no one wants a new freeway to be built through (or often even near) their area....And they especially will not want a new freeway to be built through their area when their area is so highly desirable and their financial affluence provides them with the political influence to stop the construction of an unwanted highway through their affluent area.
Other major factors that have prevented the construction of an Outer Perimeter superhighway are the more pronounced progressive politics of Intown Atlanta (a brand of progressive politics that likely has traditionally been more pronounced than in other Sunbelt inner cities) and Atlanta's relatively close proximity to the Blue Ridge/Appalachian Mountains....A factor that has attracted to road construction proposals like the Outer Perimeter/Northern Arc the intense opposition of national environmental activists who are extremely fiercely protective about protecting the Appalachian Mountains region from the type of heavy development patterns that dominate the landscape closer to Atlanta.
That historically more pronounced progressivism in Intown Atlanta and Atlanta's relatively close distance to the Blue Ridge Mountains/Southern Appalachians and the increased road construction-averse/environmental activism seems to have made the construction of an Outer Perimeter-type superhighway and/or superhighways much more difficult (impossible) around Atlanta (where much of the terrain of outlying areas is heavily-wooded hills and mountains) than around Texas city/metros like Houston and Dallas where the terrain is relatively flatter and less-wooded and nowhere near a national environmental flashpoint like the Blue Ridge/Appalachian mountains where Atlanta is located relatively very close to.
I don't see this as political generally conservative tend to be pro road and anti transit. And this was back when these area was more conservative. Yet still not a of freeways.
The reason is because Nobody wants their neighborhoods to be razed, not in city residents, not suburbanites, not liberal, not conservatives.
I agree with blu in the red,
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Originally Posted by bu2
Well I agree with you on the latter. I think an outer loop should help residents and not just truckers.
Ideally, a 2nd loop would run along the Roswell/Milton border in the north, along Ronald Reagan Parkway in the east and near Lithonia, and around 92 in the west, cutting through southwest Fulton County. But the Fulton County part, north or south, just isn't going to happen politically. Its conceivable the eastern and western portions could be closer in than that Cartersville proposal.
And you are correct, Houston's 2nd loop, Beltway 8, is about the same distance from downtown as 285. Long ago, interestingly, Houston's 610 was considered the outer loop and the freeways forming a loop around downtown (I-45, I-10 and I-69/US 59) were considered the inner loop.
But Anything beyond that is encourage more sprawl, this why the northern arc idea though Cartersville was a bad idea
That historically more pronounced progressivism in Intown Atlanta and Atlanta's relatively close distance to the Blue Ridge Mountains/Southern Appalachians and the increased road construction-averse/environmental activism seems to have made the construction of an Outer Perimeter-type superhighway and/or superhighways much more difficult (impossible) around Atlanta (where much of the terrain of outlying areas is heavily-wooded hills and mountains) than around Texas city/metros like Houston and Dallas where the terrain is relatively flatter and less-wooded and nowhere near a national environmental flashpoint like the Blue Ridge/Appalachian mountains where Atlanta is located relatively very close to.
Or in other words, there ain't nothing special about the lands of Dallas or Houston (my words)
This is exactly why I will staunchly fight any effort to build an outer perimeter. Once a large highway is built, the surrounding landscape is modified forever. Nature is lost forever. We have plenty of space to modify to our needs, these aren't inconsequential decisions like they are in Texass.
I like the idea of building a Northern Arc around the northern burbs similar to I-840 around Nashville. I think an entire 2nd Outer Perimeter is overkill. If you build a Northern Arc, finish converting Ga 316 into a freeway, expand MARTA and add managed lanes on I-285, it should cover the area for the few decades.
this is silly Umm maybe cause your correction aren't great enough to change my point, so it's like arguing to say your wrong rather then to try to understand my point.
I'm not going to get in to a long and pointless argument with you. You tried to make a point with incorrect information. Thanks for correcting it.
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My point was Atlanta plan northern arch was way too far out.
Depends on the purpose for the Arc. If it is to provide interconnectivity between the suburbs then yes you are right: it was too far out. If it is to provide a route around Atlanta for through shipping (i.e.: between Savannah and the midwest) then it was a reasonable starting point, although it would have had to extend all the way to Macon.
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this respond here is very telling, that you literally don't have point even respond to me. that you again only respond to say your wrong rather to understand my point.
I understand that you attempted to make a point using bad and misleading information.
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then it's too late for an outer loop, constructing additional loops or freeways closer where most of the population is at, would be most helpful to local and I wouldn't against it. but constructing a loop and putting it way in the exurbs encourage more sprawl.
Sprawl is a big concern, and the need to minimize it puts the larger metro area in a real bind. By trying to make things better we only end up making them worse.
As for another inner loop, as I already said there isn't room. You've been measuring distance from downtown to the Perimeter. But as you pointed out, 285 isn't square. It isn't even a rectangle. It's only 6 miles from downtown to west 285, and 9 miles to east 285. Even if land acquisition wasn't a concern, trying to squeeze another complete loop in there would be pointless. But, more east-west connectivity would be beneficial. Such as, extend Langford Parkway to meet up with 675. And continue Stone Mountain Freeway further west all the way to west 285. But since both of those ideas would require slicing through existing neighborhoods no one has the political will to make them work.
Or in other words, there ain't nothing special about the lands of Dallas or Houston (my words)
This is exactly why I will staunchly fight any effort to build an outer perimeter. Once a large highway is built, the surrounding landscape is modified forever. Nature is lost forever. We have plenty of space to modify to our needs, these aren't inconsequential decisions like they are in Texass.
And you are not the only one who will staunchly and aggressively fight any new effort to build a new Outer Perimeter superhighway.
Apparently, much (if not most) of the Georgia voting public will staunchly and aggressively fight any new effort to build a new Outer Perimeter superhighway....Which is why the Outer Perimeter was officially removed from the drawing boards back in 2003.
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Originally Posted by dpatt.marine1
I like the idea of building a Northern Arc around the northern burbs similar to I-840 around Nashville. I think an entire 2nd Outer Perimeter is overkill. If you build a Northern Arc, finish converting Ga 316 into a freeway, expand MARTA and add managed lanes on I-285, it should cover the area for the few decades.
The idea of building a Northern Arc was pushed heavily during the Roy Barnes gubernatorial administration back in the late-1990's and early 2000's but was soundly rejected by the Georgia voting public when Barnes lost his re-election bid to Sonny Perdue in 2002.
The Northern Arc/Outer Perimeter concept was again soundly rejected by the Georgia voting public in 2012 when the T-SPLOST proposal referendum failed by almost a 2-1 margin largely because of growing widespread public paranoia that the proposal was an attempt to finance a new Northern Arc/Outer Perimeter because of a T-SPLOST funded proposed local Gwinnett arterial roadway in the right-of-way of the abandoned Northern Arc/Outer Perimeter.
The apparent massive public unpopularity of the Outer Perimeter/Northern Arc concept is one of the major reasons why Georgia state government is proposing to expand I-285 with the addition of multiple express lanes on each direction of the highway.
Because the state appears to be getting some pushback from the residents who live along the Top End of the I-285 Perimeter, it is possible that the roadway will be expanded with a new express lane and/or truck lane roadway tunneled under the existing lanes of the I-285 Top End Perimeter roadway....Much like the I-635 roadway on the north side of Dallas which was recently expanded with the addition of 4-8 tolled express lanes mostly under the existing I-635 roadway at a cost of about $6 billion (the "LBJ Express" project).
The Northern Arc/Outer Perimeter concept was again soundly rejected by the Georgia voting public in 2012 when the T-SPLOST proposal referendum failed by almost a 2-1 margin largely because of growing widespread public paranoia that the proposal was an attempt to finance a new Northern Arc/Outer Perimeter because of a T-SPLOST funded proposed local Gwinnett arterial roadway in the right-of-way of the abandoned Northern Arc/Outer Perimeter.
This is a massive lie even for you.
You think the TSPLOST failed because people thought it was going to being about the Northern Arc?
Are you serious?
It was rejected because the suburban counties didn't like the project list. They didn't like $500 million going to deferred maintenance for MARTA. They didn't like $1 billion going to a Clifton Corridor route MARTA projected at only providing 10,000 rides per day. The Northern Arc concerns were minimal.
I'm not going to get in to a long and pointless argument with you. You tried to make a point with incorrect information. Thanks for correcting it.
You said my point was invalid in your last post, Which is like me saying it's extremely hot it's 97 outside, and you going no it 93 so you point is invalid.... that missing the point.
For the record I was using the loop around Houston DT as the first loop which would make Highway 8 the 3rd in that sense, but it doesn't matter it's just semantics to my larger point. Houston has more going on in the core none of it is as far out as Atlanta planed northern arc.
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Depends on the purpose for the Arc. If it is to provide interconnectivity between the suburbs then yes you are right: it was too far out. If it is to provide a route around Atlanta for through shipping (i.e.: between Savannah and the midwest) then it was a reasonable starting point, although it would have had to extend all the way to Macon.
I understand that you attempted to make a point using bad and misleading information.
Sprawl is a big concern, and the need to minimize it puts the larger metro area in a real bind. By trying to make things better we only end up making them worse.
Then it needs to be outside the metro altogether
Rome and Athens have no freeways, Then there could be a fault line freeway connection Augusta to Columbus. that out side the metro could help trucker or what ever avoid the region
but the idea like hey let build a interstate in the exurbs .... that's a bad idea. Either freeways need to be closer to the core or outside the metro.
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As for another inner loop, as I already said there isn't room. You've been measuring distance from downtown to the Perimeter. But as you pointed out, 285 isn't square. It isn't even a rectangle. It's only 6 miles from downtown to west 285, and 9 miles to east 285. Even if land acquisition wasn't a concern, trying to squeeze another complete loop in there would be pointless. But, more east-west connectivity would be beneficial. Such as, extend Langford Parkway to meet up with 675. And continue Stone Mountain Freeway further west all the way to west 285. But since both of those ideas would require slicing through existing neighborhoods no one has the political will to make them work.
My overall point is Atlanta needs to look at other metros with similar not to far road net work as Atlanta.
DC doesn't have the Houston freeways but it has far better transit and higher populations near employment areas. Since Atlanta and metros like Atlanta have a handicap with in comes to roads with sprawl then work to play on strengths in other areas to make up.
I brought up roads near the core to highlight I'm not against roads, but I been saying building more roads are a stretch. Atlanta may have to do some unusual stuff with tunnels and decks to have more.
As far as political goes, I don't see roads as a political issue because there nothing right letft about. Conservative tend to be pro roads and Anti transit, but were already are ducussing suburbia that tend be more historically conservative. political issues didn't stop roads from being built.
In the 50's and 60's there were a lot of urban renewal cities razed a lot of neighborhoods for freeways but after this became less common. And rightful so.
in the 70's and 80's Houston and Dallas/Fort Worth were smaller they started building freeways in less develop areas or semi rural that are now today very populated. In 1960 Arlington was 44,775 now it's 388,125. They didn't razed a lot of Arlington neighborhoods for freeways Arlington wasn't larger there, they had plenty space to build before Arlington grew.
I for more freeways in the core but I'm against razing neighborhoods, So either Atlanta does something spectacular like build underground freeways or actually start looking at better growth pattern and transit. The ARC seem to be supporting the later.
Last edited by chiatldal; 05-21-2017 at 07:46 PM..
You think the TSPLOST failed because people thought it was going to being about the Northern Arc?
Are you serious?
It was rejected because the suburban counties didn't like the project list. They didn't like $500 million going to deferred maintenance for MARTA. They didn't like $1 billion going to a Clifton Corridor route MARTA projected at only providing 10,000 rides per day. The Northern Arc concerns were minimal.
What fantasy land do you live in?
Well, none of us obviously live in the same fantasyland of lies, distortion, stupidity and insanity that you dwell in, hoss.
Of course the T-SPLOST failed because both urban and suburban areas like did not like the project list.
But the placement of the Sugarloaf Parkway Extension from 316 to Peachtree Industrial Boulevard was one of the major reasons the Georgia Sierra Club cited for opposing the 2012 T-SPLOST referendum.
The Georgia Sierra Club wrote about their high level of discomfort with the inclusion of the extension of Sugarloaf Parkway on the 2012 Atlanta regional T-SPLOST funding list in their "Georgia Sierran" newsletter back in mid-2011...
Quote:
The Outer Perimeter: A Road that Won’t Die
Nearly a decade ago, Georgia environmental advocates secured one of their most important victories on the transportation front in recent memory – the defeat of the proposed Northern Arc expressway, a 60-mile ribbon of asphalt that would have cut through 4 exurban counties, driving the outer reaches of metropolitan Atlanta, already one of the most sprawling regions in the country, yet further into the North Georgia piedmont. The Northern Arc was itself a remnant of an earlier, even more ambitious proposal, the 200-mile Outer Perimeter, that would have created a second circumferential highway around Atlanta, over 20 miles farther from the city center than I-285, the existing perimeter highway that drove much of Atlanta’s sprawl in the late 20th century.
The decisive defeat of the Northern Arc may have seemed to be the end of the line for the Outer Perimeter. But this is Georgia, of course, where road projects die hard; the highway lobby remains a powerful force in statewide politics, and the extensive planning and engineering work – and in some cases, property acquisition – previously completed for these proposals make them realtively easy to resurrect. And so, with discussions about new transportation funding sources such as the 2012 “T-Splost” referenda heating up, it should be no surprise that variations on the Outer Perimeter concept are once again rearing their ugly head. Below is a primer on several active proposals that in some way trace their roots to the supposedly “dead” Outer Perimeter...
...The “Sugarloaf Parkway Extension” (Phases 2 & 3)
Location: Northeast Gwinnett County
The Proposal: A project that has largely flown under the radar until recently, this concept would effectively build the eastern 12 miles, or one-fifth, of the Northern Arc as originally proposed, connecting Highway 316 near Lawrenceville to Peachtree Industrial Boulevard, much of it using right-of-way originally preserved for the Outer Perimeter. Officially called the “Sugarloaf Parkway Extension,” the road, to be built as a limited-access facility, would also intersect both I-85 and I-985 near the Mall of Georgia. Cost: $463 million for both phases. Status: Both phases were submitted as part of Gwinnett County’s “wish list” for the 2012 T-Splost, and as the Sierran goes to press, most drafts of a potential constrained list include one or both phases. Provided that it makes the final list to be presented to voters, expect this road, the only major new limited-access highway being considered for the tax, to become a flashpoint as the debate over the 2012 referendum heats up.
There was also an article in the Atlanta Business Chronicle in October 2011 about the Georgia Sierra Club's intense level of discomfort with the appearance of the Sugarloaf Parkway Extension on the T-SPLOST project funding list...
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Road project resurrects fears of Northern Arc...
An environmental group that helped sink the Northern Arc nearly a decade ago is warning the controversial highway project north of Atlanta could be attempting a comeback.
An 8.5-mile extension of Sugarloaf Parkway in Gwinnett County to be funded through a proposed regional transportation sales tax lies along the route once envisioned for a 60-mile east-west highway connecting Interstate 75 at Cartersville, Ga., with I-85 at Lawrenceville.
The nearly $300 million project is part of a $6.1 billion list of highway and transit improvements that would be built across metro Atlanta if voters in 10 counties pass the tax referendum next year.
“A segment of the Northern Arc expressway, an intensely controversial road that was defeated by a diverse coalition of organizations (including ours) nearly a decade ago has been quietly slipped onto the [project] list ... with little public discussion,” Colleen Kiernan, director of the Georgia chapter of the Sierra Club, wrote Sept. 28 in a letter to a “roundtable” of 21 local elected officials that has been putting together the project list.
But officials with the Atlanta Regional Commission (ARC), which has been working with the Atlanta Regional Transportation Roundtable on the list of projects, said the Sugarloaf extension is not an effort to resurrect the Northern Arc.
“This is an intra-county project,” said David Haynes, the ARC’s principal transportation planner. “There is absolutely no plan to extend that corridor into any other counties.”
The Northern Arc sprang to life in the early 2000s as the answer to long-standing pleas from business leaders for an east-west Outer Perimeter that would give drivers, particularly truckers, an alternative to the heavily congested I-285.
Then-Gov. Roy Barnes was the project’s most influential proponent, but he was forced to back away when it became a hot-button campaign issue during his unsuccessful bid for a second term in 2002.
The road drew strong opposition from affluent property owners in the area, emotions that were further inflamed when it was revealed that some members of state or regional boards involved in moving the highway forward might have financial interests in properties along the planned route.
It fell to Barnes’ successor, Sonny Perdue, to officially kill the Northern Arc in 2003.
Despite Perdue’s pronouncements, however, the Northern Arc has continued to resurface over the years.
In 2007, it was part of former State Transportation Board member David Doss’ “Big Idea,” a $45 billion series of highway and transit projects.
Two years later, leaders in the Georgia House of Representatives pushing a statewide transportation tax increase included in the legislation a project widening the route intended for the Northern Arc.
Northern Arc watchers’ attention also has been drawn to plans to upgrade stretches of highway along the Cartersville-to-Lawrenceville corridor.
Besides the current debate over the Sugarloaf Parkway extension, Northern Arc opponents have focused on the planned 411 Connector linking Rome, Ga., with Cartersville. Jeff Anderson, co-founder and former chairman of the Northern Arc Task Force, a grass-roots group formed to oppose the project, ran ads in Rome’s daily newspaper last year characterizing the 411 proposal as a backdoor bid to bring back the Northern Arc.
Kiernan sees the 411 Connector and Sugarloaf Parkway extension, located on opposite sides of the old Northern Arc alignment, as potential bookends to the larger project.
“It could be a piecemeal way to build the Northern Arc,” she said.
Haynes said the Sugarloaf Parkway project does lie along the route, one of dozens of tracts in Gwinnett, Forsyth and Bartow counties the Georgia Department of Transportation bought with the Northern Arc in mind. That right of way is still available, he said.
But ARC spokeswoman Julie Ralston noted that the Northern Arc was not included in the latest regional transportation plan adopted by the commission last summer.
“As far as we are concerned, it is off the table,” she said.
Despite his misgivings last year over the 411 Connector, Anderson said he is convinced there’s no conspiracy afoot to convert the Sugarloaf Parkway project into the first phase of the Northern Arc.
“There’s not enough money in the [transportation sales tax] to fund the Northern Arc,” he said.
But Kiernan warned that the link between the Sugarloaf project and the Northern Arc could be sufficient to sour the region’s voters on the referendum.
“This project will become a poison pill that could endanger passage of the tax next year,” she wrote in her letter to the roundtable.
The Sierra Club and other environmental groups as well as rail advocates have pushed for a larger commitment to transit projects than the roundtable has been willing to support.
Instead of building the Sugarloaf Parkway extension, the Sierra Club is suggesting redirecting those funds toward extending passenger rail service along the I-85 corridor in Gwinnett County.
But Gwinnett officials say there’s a need for the cross-county connectivity that extending Sugarloaf Parkway from Georgia 316 to Buford Drive would provide.
It was the Georgia Sierra Club's opposition to the T-SPLOST on the grounds that they thought that the funds it generated would be used to resurrect the Northern Arc (by way of funding for an extension of Sugarloaf Parkway in the right-of-way of the abandoned Northern Arc which Gwinnett County government had kept free of development for the construction of a local arterial road) that helped to generate widespread public opposition to the T-SPLOST project list....Widespread public opposition which eventually led to the landslide defeat of the Atlanta regional T-SPLOST referendum on July 31, 2012.
By the way, it is just me or do I smell burning corndogs in here?
Well, none of us obviously live in the same fantasyland of lies, distortion, stupidity and insanity that you dwell in, hoss.
Of course the T-SPLOST failed because both urban and suburban areas like did not like the project list.
But the placement of the Sugarloaf Parkway Extension from 316 to Peachtree Industrial Boulevard was one of the major reasons the Georgia Sierra Club cited for opposing the 2012 T-SPLOST referendum.
The Georgia Sierra Club wrote about their high level of discomfort with the inclusion of the extension of Sugarloaf Parkway on the 2012 Atlanta regional T-SPLOST funding list in their "Georgia Sierran" newsletter back in mid-2011...
There was also an article in the Atlanta Business Chronicle in October 2011 about the Georgia Sierra Club's intense level of discomfort with the appearance of the Sugarloaf Parkway Extension on the T-SPLOST project funding list...
It was the Georgia Sierra Club's opposition to the T-SPLOST on the grounds that they thought that the funds it generated would be used to resurrect the Northern Arc (by way of funding for an extension of Sugarloaf Parkway in the right-of-way of the abandoned Northern Arc which Gwinnett County government had kept free of development for the construction of a local arterial road) that helped to generate widespread public opposition to the T-SPLOST project list....Widespread public opposition which eventually led to the landslide defeat of the Atlanta regional T-SPLOST referendum on July 31, 2012.
By the way, it is just me or do I smell burning corndogs in here?
Mic drop!
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