New interchanges, widening are concerns with proposed managed lanes projects on I-285 and GA 400 (Atlanta: live, centers)
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You must not have read the link. The author said it would make transportation planners happy that people would do what she did. Many of them want to make commuting difficult. I've heard quotes from some of them. I believe Tim Keane did (although I could be mistaken).
Those people who get displaced do have to move, but they don't have to move far. Its not a contradiction.
They don't want to make commuting difficult, commuting is already difficult.
they are happy people are making rational decisions instead of moving to places with bad transportation infrastructure that transportation planners can not fix. at least not with out extremes.
it's like a doctor would probably be more happy if someone took care of their heath. instead not talking care of themselves to something that doctors can't treat.
Quote:
As for Atlanta requiring more displacements, I doubt it. Houston is denser. In any event, since Atlanta hasn't done anything like that in many years, it can't really be demonstrated either way.
This also why I repeating myself with those pictures, cause your missing what I mean Houston confines growth.
Yes Houston denser is partly why it has more space to build freeways
Houston confines growth in a grid, Atlanta grows wildly.
You can dodge development in Houston to a digree you can not dodge development in metro Atlanta
Boston is also in larger CSA with Worcester, and Providence, Providence MSA alone is bigger than Jacksonville, Birmingham and Raleigh ... and Worcester is nearly a million people.
New York CSA also invludes other close in MSA like Trenton which is over a million and Lehigh Valley,
Basically it's not just NY and Boston loops, They are help serve other major metros they are a CSA with.
I wouldn't reject the idea of Athens getting freeways to the east. or maybe Hall. even though there aren't even major metros like Boston, and NY has. but a northern arc just to throw into exurbia is completely necessary.
Nashville is just straight up bad growth planning.
Nashville MSA is just 1.8 mil but it's 7,484 sq mi that ridiculous, it's just 1.8 mil but nearly sprawl the area of 5+ million metro. seriously Atlanta is 8,376 sq mi but Nashville only a 3rd Atlanta pop MSA is 7,484 sq mi, heck Charlotte is 2.4 million is only 3,198 sq mi Nashville is an example why not to do it.
By "bigger" do you mean "more populous"? Cause by that measure we have a bigger MSA than any of the metro areas you mentioned other than New York.
Let's be clear about the primary role of a west-south-east, "3/4 bypass": Long-distance traffic relief. At certain times of the day, this bypass, even though it would probably be tolled, might be worth the extra few bucks for a long-distance driver. That goes double for truck drivers who get paid by the start-to-finish mile, no compensation for sitting in traffic.
By "bigger" do you mean "more populous"? Cause by that measure we have a bigger MSA than any of the metro areas you mentioned other than New York.
Let's be clear about the primary role of a west-south-east, "3/4 bypass": Long-distance traffic relief. At certain times of the day, this bypass, even though it would probably be tolled, might be worth the extra few bucks for a long-distance driver. That goes double for truck drivers who get paid by the start-to-finish mile, no compensation for sitting in traffic.
I made two points
My first point was that NY, Boston loops you pointed was not just severing NY and Boston metro but also Trenton, Providence and other MSA, They apart of larger multi core CSA. but those two metros over a million on they on right. It's like having Birmingham at where Athens is at... So those loops aren't simply NY and Boston loops, they to help serve other metros
My second point was Nashville is such a bad example it make my point. Nashville is only 1.8 million it should be no where near the sq mi areas of Metro Atlanta which is 5.8. It echo the point that Nashville shouldn't have a loop out that far.
Also Atlanta is logistics hub, Atlanta has the 5 largest amount of warehouse space. truckers are not just to trying bypass Atlanta they trying come to Atlanta.
Further more why not just build these freeway completely outside Metro Atlanta? That way they not in Atlanta exurbs and that way truckers or what ever can avoid the metro all together. basically nearly all freeways in Georgia are leading to Atlanta. There could be a Augusta to Columbus freeways, Athens has no freeways and etc.
My first point was that NY, Boston loops you pointed was not just severing NY and Boston metro but also Trenton, Providence and other MSA, They apart of larger multi core CSA. but those two metros over a million on they on right. It's like having Birmingham at where Athens is at... So those loops aren't simply NY and Boston loops, they to help serve other metros
My second point was Nashville is such a bad example it make my point. Nashville is only 1.8 million it should be no where near the sq mi areas of Metro Atlanta which is 5.8. It echo the point that Nashville shouldn't have a loop out that far.
Also Atlanta is logistics hub, Atlanta has the 5 largest amount of warehouse space. truckers are not just to trying bypass Atlanta they trying come to Atlanta.
Further more why not just build these freeway completely outside Metro Atlanta? That way they not in Atlanta exurbs and that way truckers or what ever can avoid the metro all together. basically nearly all freeways in Georgia are leading to Atlanta. There could be a Augusta to Columbus freeways, Athens has no freeways and etc.
Augusta to Columbus is the Interstate 14 proposal. August-Macon-Columbus-Montgomery-Jackson-Alexandria-Bryan-Killeen-Midland, TX. Section near Ft. Hood in Killeen is built and signed as I-14.
The below is a link to a group promoting the TX/LA portion:
Grid or winding roads, urban or sprawl, freeway or transit, it doesn't matter- you didn't build it, governments and corporations did. But it impacts your personal choice just the same because it determines where your housing is. Arguing over whether living in the suburbs or living in the city offers more personal freedom is really a moot point because it's all been determined by factors beyond your control. It's just a matter of perception.
They don't want to make commuting difficult, commuting is already difficult.
they are happy people are making rational decisions instead of moving to places with bad transportation infrastructure that transportation planners can not fix. at least not with out extremes.
it's like a doctor would probably be more happy if someone took care of their heath. instead not talking care of themselves to something that doctors can't treat.
This also why I repeating myself with those pictures, cause your missing what I mean Houston confines growth.
Yes Houston denser is partly why it has more space to build freeways
Houston confines growth in a grid, Atlanta grows wildly.
You can dodge development in Houston to a digree you can not dodge development in metro Atlanta
The reverse is true. Because Atlanta's development is so spotty, you can maneuver around developments easier than in a denser area. There is a LOT of empty land in North Fulton. North Roswell (Crabapple) and parts of Alpharetta feel like you are out in the country. Lots of empty spots in Cherokee and Forsyth.
If you go out 30 miles (Houston's Grand Parkway is mostly about 30 miles out), it would be Villa Rica-Dallas-south end of Lake Allatoona-North Milton-Suwanee-almost to Covington-McDonough-just N. of Peachtree City at I-85-Villa Rica. Lots of space. The proposed northern arc was further out than that.
Dallas's 3rd loop (President George Bush Turnpike on the North, 161 on the west, eventually loop 9 on the south and east) is only about 20 miles out. Now their inner loop-12-is only partly freeway and is mostly an arterial road.
The biggest complications in Atlanta besides NIMBYs and political will are Lake Allatoona and Lake Lanier.
The reverse is true. Because Atlanta's development is so spotty, you can maneuver around developments easier than in a denser area. There is a LOT of empty land in North Fulton. North Roswell (Crabapple) and parts of Alpharetta feel like you are out in the country. Lots of empty spots in Cherokee and Forsyth.
If you go out 30 miles (Houston's Grand Parkway is mostly about 30 miles out), it would be Villa Rica-Dallas-south end of Lake Allatoona-North Milton-Suwanee-almost to Covington-McDonough-just N. of Peachtree City at I-85-Villa Rica. Lots of space. The proposed northern arc was further out than that.
Dallas's 3rd loop (President George Bush Turnpike on the North, 161 on the west, eventually loop 9 on the south and east) is only about 20 miles out. Now their inner loop-12-is only partly freeway and is mostly an arterial road.
The biggest complications in Atlanta besides NIMBYs and political will are Lake Allatoona and Lake Lanier.
And the hillier terrain, particularly as you start getting north of the metro area.
Or in other words, there ain't nothing special about the lands of Dallas or Houston (my words)
This is exactly why I will staunchly fight any effort to build an outer perimeter. Once a large highway is built, the surrounding landscape is modified forever. Nature is lost forever. We have plenty of space to modify to our needs, these aren't inconsequential decisions like they are in Texass.
^^^^
Nature eventually reclaims the roadway, and thousands of old roads in Florida and the Southeast are barely visible in the gras, you have to look for little chunks of roadway.
Here are my thoughts:
1) A loop's purpose: Access to all major roads from one highway, initially thought to reduce air pollution by never having to stop (in theory).
2) Everyone is correct in that a gigantic loop around Atlanta wouldn't deliver benefits of typical loops. Even I-285 is too far out to be easily accessed by intown traffic as means for getting to any part of town.
3) So, please stop with the platitudes of encouraging sprawl. It's the highways heading into Atlanta's center from all directions of endless and cheap land in the largest state East of the Mississippi that are responsible.. At most a 2nd outer loop would merely fill-in pockets between existing corridors heading out of town. Who wants to add another leg to an already extreme commute just for that $200k house?
4) Let's face facts: After decades of no highway planning or land acquisition, our only options are targeted pieces of infrastructure to solve pressing needs. I never thought of the Northern Arc as anything other than to accommodate East-West travel from East Cobb to Gwinnett, badly needed for about 3 million people, who probably commute back and forth more than expected.
5) All the talk about how far Houston's loops are from downtown, doesn't apply here. Everyone always assumes that downtown is part of everyone's commute, and I say that I-285 daily users are mostly suburb-to-suburb. It will never be known if our highways followed where the people chose to live and work, or if the largely- unchanged layout of freeways dating back to the 1960's is responsible for our problems.
6) The grid layout of cities West of here isn't the magic bullet for avoiding gridlock, though it is better, and flat land is probably the main reason for the layout. Living in the Southeast is all about integrating into the landscape to enjoy the trees, beauty, etc.
7) Just like the old downtowns everywhere that have faded in and out of favorability, a dense grid of rectalinear blocks plopped into the center of the tree-covered SouthEast would make no sense and not create the nicest-looking neighborhoods.
8) You can connect our meandering system of roads to one another anytime you wish and get the same benefits of grids out West. A wavy grid of roads is fine if the connections are there.
9) Targeted solutions for our gridlock include streamlining corridors for more throughput, and that means eliminating as many left-turn phases as possible at intersections, and of course succinct signal timing over long distances.
10) Digital message signs could share a lot of good info to motorists, like yesterday going from Midtown to Cross Creek Golf Course. Collier road was a disaster at 5:30 pm around Howell Mill, but Defoors Ave roughly paralleling Collier was completely empty, not one car on the road for 2 miles. Sharing this with drivers would have improved everyone's experience.
Last edited by architect77; 05-25-2017 at 02:41 PM..
I never said Atlanta could not use freeways, I'm asking how can Atlanta do it with out razing significant neighborhoods?.................... no answer
but reason I repeating myself they don't want what Atlanta actually can physically do..... for something Atlanta physically can't.
This why metro Atlanta has made little progression in neither directions the last few decades,
Atlanta road network, Atlanta layout in general is not like Houston it's like DC, So the question should be how does DC get by?
The things DC has over Houston Atlanta can emulate
But the thing Houston has over DC Atlanta can not.
1) DC Metro is falling apart from not investing in maintenance. Ridership is down about 20%, and any substantial improvements will take a decade to materialize.
2) DC's mobility and dearth of highway alternative routes are worse than Atlanta.
3) Virginia is too conservative to adequately address NOVA's highway shortfalls.
4) They have smaller freeways with less lanes, and there's no way to travel Northbound without going through Springfield Interchange (the mixing bowl).
5) Their new HOT lanes on I-95 are very expensive.
6) It takes 4 hours to cross D.C. metro on any weekday morning.
10) Digital message signs could share a lot of good info to motorists, like yesterday going from Midtown to Cross Creek Golf Course. Collier road was a disaster at 5:30 pm around Howell Mill, but Defoors Ave roughly paralleling Collier was completely empty, not one car on the road for 2 miles. Sharing this with drivers would have improved everyone's experience.
I don't know if I'd agree that DeFoor roughly parallels Collier. It intersects Collier a little less than a mile west of Howell Mill, then dumps you onto Howell Mill 3/4 mile south. The problem is that the section of Howell Mill where DeFoor intersects is highly congested and very slow. There's a reason not many people are on it. I live over there, know every back road and alternate route, and almost never take DeFoor. But, by the way, DeFoor does frequently back up at the Howell Mill intersection, sometimes as Taylor Street (1/4 mile).
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(my words)
